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EP 81: The Inflection Point of Data-Led Experience, with Todd Myers


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Todd Myers of BRANDthro talk about the arrival of the emotion economy, and how we can blend neuroscience and AI to create experiences that are predictably more engaging for humans—and therefore much more effective for consumer brands and social impact organizations alike. Watch or listen (and share!).



 EP 81: The Inflection Point of Data-Led Experience

Duration: 18:22


Kelly: So welcome to this week's episode of Thrive. I am very excited because today we're talking about the impact of gathering emotional data and augmenting it with machine learning and AI. I'm actually joined today by Todd Meyers, who's the co-founder of BRANDthro. BRANDthro is a neuromarketing consultancy using AI and neuroscience to create a richer understanding of humans, brands, and content, but through the lens of personality, brand, experience, and language, all connected to emotion. So, that may have been a mouthful, but we're gonna dive into all of that, and really talk about the inflection point of data led experience. So Todd, thank you so much for joining me today. I am super, super stoked to have you.


Todd:  Thank you for having me.


Kelly: So let's really just kind of unpack. The emotion economy has arrived. Right? What role would you say empathy should play in customer experience?


Todd: Well, that's a big question.


Kelly: It's a big question.


Todd: It's a big question. And what's interesting is that if you'd asked me that question 5 months ago, I would have said it's a critical importance to understand how people are feeling so you can understand how they'll behave, and how they'll act. And when we say customer, look at everyone as a customer, so employees as a customer outside inside. So it's critical we understand from the C-suite perspective, how important customer experience and employee experience are, and more importantly, we determine the importance of employee advocacy, and customer advocacy as part of that experience. Well, everything changed. If you asked that question before March 13 and you kind of look at with deer in the headlights, what does that mean? Well, we, all of a sudden understood what advocacy mean starting March 13th, saying it now means safety, security, and somebody has my back. And that pervasive understanding of what someone is feeling in this current state is critical for any brand to succeed. Then the world changed again on March 25 after George Floyd murder, and we understood a whole another texture and a whole another layer of what does safety and security mean. And so, let's start with the employee experience first, because everyone being a customer, and by understanding how you're going to engage, and what are the key experiences that are going to be most resonant with them in a remote environment for most of us, and then what is actually going to make them feel safe and secure through multiple lenses, and what's the best language to use to actually engage them and make them feel engaged, productive, and a part of making change. All those things that vary from brand to brand, but have an overall arching theme that has to be throughout all societies. So that at its highest level is what we're talking about when the importance of understanding how people are feeling when creating experiences, whether it be internally or externally.


Kelly: I think that's a good overarching frame. Most people are going to say, “Well, what about the economics”? So let's get into the economics. When we talk about them from both qualitative and quantitative KPI standpoint, how does emotionally or data lead experiences really impact a moment to drive an action?


Todd: So it's my favorite question. We are an insights company. But what good are insights just for insights sake? So our objective is to look at the economics of emotion. So understanding by creating emotionally optimized communications, emotionally optimized experiences, emotionally optimized, you fill in the blank wherever you're actually going to touch a customer. By making them feel something, you'll be able to move them to act. And actually, the more intense that emotion is, the higher the emotional intensity a brand has with its target, the higher degree of trust, loyalty, and spend will result. So in a world where no one knows where to turn to feel safe and secure, you were looking to brands and we will look to brands to make us feel safe, secure and trust.

Kelly: It actually makes me think of the recent Nike spot. I don't know if you saw that. Someone posted it on LinkedIn. I think it was Rod Hess from Rally Marketing who posted it on his LinkedIn, a client of mine and I shared it. It was such an amazing spot, incredibly emotional, really, really well done in terms of like the video production. And, again, it's exactly what you're talking about, right? It covered all of those emotional, obviously it was very on brand in terms of, it was showing the athletes in many different sports and sort of like showing them transitioning from one to the other of all different backgrounds and really kind of this very in solidarity type of message. But it was just incredibly done. I don't think that there was even a word spoken in the entire spot. It was just all done visually, but incredibly emotional.


Todd: Nike is a great brand, a great example, who hits the emotional button every single time.


Kelly: Every time.


Todd: And there are some brilliant strategists out there, some brilliant creatives out there. What we're saying is, what if you were to actually test those themes, test the language before you actually spent however many millions of dollars on a spot to test, what if you actually test it before it went to market. So you knew how somebody was going to feel before you spent a dime. So our whole philosophy is playing at the strategic phase of any sort of experienced development, whether it be a commercial, or whether it be a cultural event, or whatever it is, what somebody was going to feel, what their reaction was going to be and what their behavior would be before you spent a dime. So from an efficiency and efficacy perspective, and the economics perspective, we support optimizing not only your spend, but optimizing your emotional engagement.


Kelly: Right. I just want to go back for a second because you mentioned George Floyd. And I was wondering like, is there an example or some anecdote that you could share about how the proprietary approach that you're taking at BRANDthro is really going to benefit organizations as they respond to social justice and diversity inclusion efforts in their own organizations.


Todd: Absolutely. I can speak about it anecdotally. So we're working with a number of brands that have had particular interest right now around cultural development. And understanding that while D&I has been a guiding light for many brands today, it's taken on a whole new context right now. And I think that it's no longer business as usual. It’s no longer checking boxes. We know there is going to be an opportunity to optimize the language you're using when talking about what does race mean, what does it mean to be diverse, what does it mean to be inclusive, and what are the various kind of lenses you need to look at that including social justice, to say, how are we going to behave, how are we going to stand up as a brand internally, and we believe that, especially now, it's important to start with the employee and culture because then it halos out. And again, back to economics, that will improve productivity if someone is feeling safe and more comfortable in their in their own skin, in their own workforce, and then the ability to actually attract other employees because there is such a strong approach to diversity inclusion, and I don't believe it's the same approach. I believe now's the time that we're going to really see some catalysts of change. And we hope, and what we're working to do is identify what are some of those pivot points that we can actually take advantage of to not only benefit the organization as a whole but benefit society. So how do you ultimately stand up in an authentic way? Because every brand has to do it in the most authentic way possible. Because we've seen some of these steps already.


Kelly: Right. Yeah, it's interesting. There are a couple of really great organizations that are I think, leading this newer movement that is really rooted in the fact that talking about language, diversity and inclusion as a term, D&I as a term, maybe kind of misses the mark. And so there's this whole movement that's like, could we stop talking about D&I? It was really just checking boxes. Right?


Todd: Well, it's interesting you say that. We had our 2020 trend report that we put out for this year 2020 that we reframe D&I in a concept of brand justice.


Kelly: Oh I love that.


Todd: So it's all encompassing, and it's really understanding how does a brand step up. D&I still has connotations of checking boxes. Okay, we have this person, this person, this person, but yet, they don't have a voice. They don't necessarily have a seat at the table. There is no cross pollination of ideas. And that's the benefit of having a more diverse environment, is the diversity of ideas. I absolutely agree we've been testing different types of language. We did a bunch of testing. We did a study around COVID language and Black Lives Matters language, to see how it was resonating with voters who are 19 to 40 that are male, female, and that are white and nonwhite. So again, looking at how people feel emotionally and react to specific language, and then identify what language they are most emotionally resonating with. Again, this was not brand specific, but the opportunity is to customize it to a brand to ensure that they're using the right language to connect with their target and their employees.


Kelly: Right. So that 2020 trend report that you're talking about?


Todd: Yes.


Kelly: You did that in December, but then you just mentioned some stuff around COVID and racial strife and things along those lines. Was that report updated since then? Or is the report that you're talking about from December?


Todd: The report I'm talking about is from December. We've just begun to release some of the insights from a study that we actually just completed a couple of weeks ago.


Kelly: Okay, great.


Todd: That’s a research study. Yeah.


Kelly: Okay. Got it. So definitely, we'll put the link to the 2020 trends reports in the show notes, for sure.


Todd: Yes.


Kelly: So let's talk a little bit about the technology itself, because I think that that's kind of interesting. What are the downfalls of sort of that, like, positive, negative neutral effect from third party technologies compared to what you're doing with BRANDthro?


Todd: Okay, well, what's typically available, there are a lot of people out there doing very well is what's called sentiment analysis. And sentiment analysis is really reactive language. So they're calling, let's say, Twitter, Facebook, all the other channels. They're saying, listen, your target is using this language when talking about your brand. And then they're inferring what's positive, what's negative, and what's neutral; however there are false positives and false negatives. So the limitation is that is that there's no true science behind it. What we're doing is primary research; that before anything is created, we're looking at both through the lens of personality and brand experience; that we're looking at understanding who the target is. So creating commercial intimacy. And then we're looking at brand language through both primary and secondary emotions. So primary emotions predict behavior, secondary emotions identify where there are underlying tensions that might lie beneath that primary emotion. And then we're able to weigh the emotional intensity that someone feels when reacting to a piece of language because the higher the emotional intensity, the higher the degree of trust, loyalty, and spend will result. What's unique about our approach is that we're using data science and not statistical analysis. So statistical analysis can be applied to an environment where everything is black and white. There is no multiple choice. Well, you can have multiple emotions. You can have multiple emotions to any one piece of language. So emotion is thought not to be in equilibrium. So when applying statistical analysis models, they're flawed because there are too many assumptions. But by applying data science, which is something that our head of data science created an algorithm that is able to say, measure what that weight is of that emotion or continuum of love to anger. We're able to predict with accuracy of 99% with sample size of only 100. So we're basically putting math behind emotion. So it is the data and its math. So it's accurate to .01 decimal places. So 99%.


Kelly: Unbelievable. The power of that. If you really think about putting math behind the motion. Yeah, incredible.


Todd: And again, back to the idea of Nike. When you're not Nike. The power is, you may have great ideas and we may identify there's just subtlety between the ideas, but yet one is better because it's math. It is better than the other because of we've measured how somebody is actually emotionally reacting to it.


Kelly: Yeah, so because we have or you have the ability to do that to that level of accuracy, and all of the gradient and all of the spectrum in between, which statistical analysis does not provide, there's a huge opportunity in that and the opportunity is to create these experiences that are extremely interactive and extremely engaging because you have the ability to predict that they will be. So I guess as we start to wrap up, what are some of the discussions that you've been having either internally or with other organizations in terms of the types of applications that this could be used for. Because I would imagine that, really, it's almost unlimited what you could apply this to.


Todd: So we're marketers that have created a technology for marketers. We saw two major pain points being everyone out there who's listening knows that your customer segmentations just don't tell you enough. And they're not actionable and they're stale by the time you get them. So we have the ability to actually create a rich understanding who they are through the Big Five OCEAN model. So that's our personality framework views. We're able to look at brand experience features that are most important to the target. And again, because we need small sample sizes, we're able to get to micro targets within that overall sample. So it's very exciting. You can create niche understandings, let's say within a vodka drinker, you're able to get to three ethnicities within the vodka drinker community, and create custom experiences for each of those microsegment. So we're able to understand not only the experiences that are most important to them, but then actually do some analysis to do some pairwise analysis to actually drive innovation within that space related to that target. And then we're able to look at brand language to create customer experiences that actually will move the needle. And we know from experience that we're able to move the needle on engagement and actually drive sales. So that goes back to the whole economics of really what is one of the most exciting things about how we are applying what it is we're doing right now.


Kelly: Yeah. Unbelievable. I mean, it's absolutely fascinating.


Todd: Thank you.


Kelly: I will put a link to the website in the show notes. And thank you so much for coming on. Really want to stay in touch and hear how this is going. I don't know. It's really exciting. And I love the fact that yes, we are at this inflection point, we're finally really taking emotion seriously. So that's exciting to me.


Todd: I think it's an exciting time in culture because I think that what this quarantine has shown us how important empathy is. Finally, it's kind of like something we've been talking about for years. And really what drives empathy is language. In response to your last question, it does have application wherever there's a customer engagement. So wherever there's a customer, there's a need to improve your emotional engagement and your emotional EQ. So you're absolutely right. There's broad application.


Kelly: Yeah, great. Again, thank you so much, Todd.


Todd: My pleasure. Thank you.

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EP 80: Delegate to Attain Work/Life Integration, with Nate Hirsch


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Nate Hirsch from Outsourced School talk about delegation as a means to one of the ultimate goals for every agency leader: living a fully integrated life. Watch or listen (and share!).



 EP 80:Delegate to Attain Work/Life Integration

Duration: 19:27


Kelly: So welcome to this week's episode of Thrive. I am joined by Nate Hirsch. She's the co-founder of Outsource School, which is an educational platform for entrepreneurs that want to learn a little bit more about how to scale their businesses with reliable virtual assistance. We're going to be talking about how to delegate in order to attain that elusive work-life integration, not balance, but integration. Nate, thank you so much for joining me today.


Nate: Yeah Kelly, thanks for having me. Yeah, it should be a lot of fun. Excited to be here.


Kelly: So we talked a little bit earlier that prior to Outsource School, you actually founded FreeUp, which is how I've known you for the last couple of years. You ran that for about five years straight, and you were able to turn a $5,000 investment into a $12 million company which you're able to sell. Can you go into a little bit more of that story? And even some backstory before that. How were you able to do all of that? And, what did you learn from all of it?


Nate: Yeah, so before that, I mean, when I was 20, I started off buying and selling people's textbooks. That's how I first got into being an entrepreneur. I was a sophomore in college, and I started doing that. And I actually got a cease and desist letter from my college telling me to knock it off. And my parents were both teachers. So I didn't want to get kicked out of school. That wouldn't have gone over too well. So I pivoted, and this was 2008, 2009. Amazon was bursting onto the scenes. They were just starting to sell things more than books. And I had sold books there. I had an Amazon account. And I thought it was so cool. I could have this 24/7 storefront that would automatically deposit money in my bank account, like all this stuff was new. And I started experimenting, and I tried products I was familiar with. Through a lot of trial and error, I eventually got really good at selling baby products for whatever reason. If you can imagine me as a 20 year old single college guy selling millions of dollars of baby products on Amazon. That was me. And I got in a really good time. The business was scaling and I needed help. I had to start hiring people. And I tried hiring college kids, they were pretty unreliable. They were smoking weed and drinking on the job and over sleeping shifts. So I had to pivot out of necessity. And a buddy of mine told me about the oDesk of the world, the online hiring platforms. And I started hiring people there. And at first I had no idea what I was doing. It took me years to develop a really good hiring process, which we actually now teach at Outsource School. But I also didn't like those platforms. It took forever to post a job, get 100 applicants, interview them one by one. I wanted something better, something faster. And eventually I said, you know what, I'll build this myself. And so my business partner, Connor and I, we took $5,000, we built this very crummy software that no one really liked And we took it to market. And we had, at that time, a really good hiring process and a really good Rolodex of VAs and freelancers that were reliable that knew the Amazon space well. So we started going after Amazon sellers. And our whole pitch was we pre-vet people before we let them in on our platform, which Upwork and Fiverr don't do. We’ll match you up quickly. If you need a designer, we'll get you someone within an hour, within a day and you can get started right away. You don't have to go through 50 applicants. And if even the smallest thing goes wrong, we'll have great support, great protection in the back end. If someone quits on you, we’ll cover all replacement costs. And while people hated our software, they loved the VA and freelancers. They liked the support. And we were able to scale. And I think that there are lots of reasons why we were able to scale. I think, going into the lessons that we learned. And I'll let you jump in here too. I mean, with the Amazon business, we had no idea how to hire. It took us years to figure that out. And when we started FreeUp, we knew how to hire, we could hit the ground running. But we didn't have any idea how to market because with Amazon, you pay Amazon the 15%. They get all the customers for you. And with FreeUp we're having on website, we have to get SEO or we have to learn SEO, we have to learn how to market, we have to have an affiliate program, like all this stuff was new. And we started doing a lot of trial and error figuring out. Hey, how do we set up a really good affiliate program? How do we get on podcast? How do we set up partnerships? How do we put out great content? Networking is a big thing that I started doing. I'm a big proponent of networking. And how do we get in front of the influencers that promote us and that's really the organic marketing playbook that we learned how to do with the help of VAs. Our VA is doing 80 90% of that. And now that we do Outsource School, we're kind of applying the hiring, applying the organic playbook, and teaching other people how to do the same thing.


Kelly: Right, right. So what would you say are some of the advantages of actually going with a VA over hiring someone that's well, in person is an interesting word right now, but as an employee who's not a virtual assistant? What are some of the advantages of one over the other specifically for the agency leader himself or herself?


Nate: Yeah, so before I answer that question, you have to understand how I define a virtual assistant because some people think that everyone that works from home is a VA which is fine. When I'm talking about a VA, I'm really talking about followers. So there's three different levels that an entrepreneur, that an agency leader can hire. That's followers, doers, and experts. So, followers think 5 to 10 bucks an hour, non-US, they might have years of experience, but they're there to follow your system, your process. If you don't have a system and process in place, you can't hire the follower. And that's what I'm talking about virtual assistant. The doers are graphic designers, video editors, writers. You're not teaching a graphic designer how to be a graphic designer, but they're not consulting with you either. They're there to do that one task at a high level. And then you've got the experts, high level freelancers, coaches, consultants, could be agencies or white labeling, labelling their own system, their own strategy to the table. And just like you wouldn't hire an expert and say, hey, I'm gonna train you how to do this, you wouldn't hire a VA and say, I don't know how to run Facebook ads, go run my Facebook ads. That's not gonna work out too well for you. So when you're just talking about the followers, and I like hiring US people for the doers and the experts. If you hire let's take customer service, for example, or executive assistant, you hire an executive assistant in the US for 15 bucks an hour, which isn't a terrible rate, isn't an amazing rate, it’s pretty average. And let's say best case scenario, you spend a lot of time training them, they're a rockstar, they're really good at their job, but how long are they going to be happy at 15 bucks an hour? Eventually, they're going to want 18, 20, 25. And then you run into a tough position as a business owner because your options are, you drastically overpay for a following position, or you start all over and all that investment you made in them is gone. And if you hire someone, let's say in the Philippines, 5 bucks an hour, which minimum wage in the Philippines is $12 a day. So 5 bucks an hour is a pretty great opportunity for them. Let's say best case scenario, they're a rock star, pay them 7, pay them 9, pay them 11, they're going to be with you for a very long period of time. So a lot of agency leaders aren't thinking about that long term. They're just more focused on the convenience of having someone in the US short term.


Kelly: Okay, so that's great. So that gives us an understanding of that follower, doer, and expert. Are there additional advantages specifically for the followers, hiring the VA versus the in person? I guess we could call it, you know, it's so funny we have to change our language. So instead of in person employee, now we would just say maybe someone who's on payroll in some capacity.


Nate: Right. So you go back 20 years ago, and you have to hire people full time, you have to hire people in your town or the towns around you. You need an office. And fast forward to today, you not only don't need to hire people in your town or the town around you. You can hire people from all over the world at different price points, different skill sets; you can hire them. I just hired a bookkeeper 5 hours a month. I have an EA that started off 10 hours a week. So you have a lot more flexibility as an entrepreneur that you didn't have before. There's also a factor of time zones. Most businesses now run 24/7. And while people in the Philippines might be willing to work graveyard shift because they're a little bit more used to that, getting people in the US to work overnight usually doesn't happen. So by hiring people from all over the world, you get to really make your business run 24/7. You get access to a lot more talent, and you make it a lot more flexible than if you're only hiring people in the US.


Kelly: So you use a VA yourself. Maybe you use multiples, I don't know. How do you personally think about designing your ideal day? And then how does that fit into how you utilize those VAs?


Nate: Yeah, so with FreeUp, we had 35 full time remote VAs in the Philippines. That company was obviously acquired. And now we have two VAs that are working with us in Outsource School and we'll build up from there. For me a big part of being an entrepreneur. And I wish that I had learned this a long time ago is figuring out what my ideal day looks like. And what works for me might not work for other people. But what I start with is what are the most productive hours for me? And for me, it's right when I wake up from 7 to 9 AM. That's my most productive. I have a buddy who's most productive from 2 AM to 4 AM. That's his thing. And that's fine too. He better be maximizing that every single day. So when I wake up whatever the most important thing is that day, that's what I'm doing. And what I have a VA do is they wake up before me from 5 AM to 7 AM. They clear my inbox. They book all my podcasts. They schedule my meetings. And that gives me a head start to every day. So instead of spending the first hour of my day answering emails and booking things, I can get started on that big project right away. Then I know that I want to break. Once I've spent two hours working on the most important thing, I want to go to the gym for an hour. I do very intense workouts. That's my break. And when I come back, I usually have another good hour left in me of maybe not the most important thing but some kind of project that day. I'm also a big proponent of going on podcasts. I go on a podcast today. I'm booked out through August. And for the most part, I like doing my podcasts between 11 AM and 1 PM. I don't want to do them first thing when I wake up. I don't want to do them later in the day when I'm exhausted. So my one podcast is scheduled during that time, and then the from 12, or 1 to 3 o'clock. And I try to end my day at 3 so that I can focus on my fiancé, my dogs, whatever. That's the time that I'm doing phone calls, and now I work remote so I can walk outside. I don't necessarily have to be in my office or at my computer, whether it's an internal call, an external call, like a networking call. So that's how I structure my day. And that's the same foundation that other entrepreneurs can use, to do the same thing.


Kelly: Yeah, that's great. And I think a lot of people are like, wow, that sounds amazing. I could never structure my day like that. But the reality is, you have the choice to do that. And delegating gives you that ability to have that work-life integration, which is precisely what you've just described.


Nate: Right. And there are exceptions to every rule, right? Like Roland Frasier invited me on his podcast last week, and he had an open spot at 7 PM. I'm not going to say oh sorry, I only do podcasts from 11 to 1. Like, at some point, there's a certain element of common sense where you'll make exceptions, but you want to make your ideal day as consistent as possible, as many days as possible on the weekend.


Kelly: Allowing for a lot of that flexibility.


Nate: Yeah.


Kelly: So with Outsource School, and the fact that it's an educational platform to really help entrepreneurs understand more about all of the different facets that go into hiring a virtual assistant, what are some of the most common mistakes that you've seen some of those entrepreneurs make prior to coming to Outsource School?


Nate: So I like to divide hiring into four parts. You have interviewing, onboarding, training, and managing. Most entrepreneurs know you need to interview someone. Most entrepreneurs know you need to train someone. And most groups know on some level you have to manage them. Where everyone messes up is the onboarding. And I'll give you an example. Let's say that you interview a bunch of VAs. You like Jane, you want to hire Jane at 5 bucks an hour. What the average entrepreneur does is they say, Jane, that was a great interview, you're hired at 5 bucks an hour, let's jump into training. Well, what we teach people to do at Outsource School is what we call our SICC method, which is Schedule Issues Communication Culture. And we go to Jane, and we say, that was a great interview, we want to hire you at 5 bucks an hour. First, let's make sure you're really good with 5 bucks an hour. Maybe she got another job offer. Maybe her other clients are paying her 10. And if she is, we'll talk about bonuses and raises, so she knows what to expect. And then we'll have a 20 to 30 minute conversation where we go over the schedule for me, what other commitments she has, what other clients she has, what are their schedule, how many hours is she working total, is she already working 100 hours a week before she adds my hours. So we go through that. We go through issues which could be personal, computer, internet, power, weather, for every issue we want to know how often you had that issue. What is the backup plan when you have it because we don't work with VAs that are one issue away from not being able to work for an extended period of time. And how are you going to communicate that issue? If you lose power, we're not just going to wait for you to come back in five days. How are you going to get a hold of me or my team? Then we go through communication. What channels we use? Do I like email? Do I hate email? Am I using Time Doctor, am I not. We want to make sure they like the software and agree to use the software that we use to communicate. And then lastly, we go through culture, which everyone's culture is different. But we set the expectation that we don't care how talented you are, how good at your job you are, if you're not a culture fit, you're not going to last in this business. We don't put up with drama. We don't put up with any of that. And once we've gone through rate, bonuses, raises, schedule issues, communication culture, we give the VA a chance to ask questions, and we give them a chance to back out. And we would much rather that the VA backs out than for us to find out that our expectations were too high down the line. That 20 to 30 minute conversation can save you tons of hours, tons of money down the line in issues.


Kelly: I agree with that. My natural question to the last C about culture is so you're sort of telling them upfront, this is what our culture looks like. Do you fit into that? You're having that conversation. How do you I guess from an onboarding standpoint, how do you educate your clients on Outsource School as to how to best support that VA? So you're saying culture from your end to theirs? But how do you support them, so that they're set up for success as well?


Nate: So they understand what their culture is. Is that what you’re saying? 


Kelly: Yeah, so instead of it being just this is the agency culture like you're either a fit or not, or like where is the reciprocity? Or where's the support for them as an individual in that.


Nate: Sure. So culture is a tough thing. There's kind of three parts to it. You have to figure out what your culture is. You have to find people that are fit your culture and then you have to maintain that culture down the line. So step one is figuring out what your culture is. And we share what ours is. We're all about ideas and feedback. And people that don't just say yes, because I'm the boss, I'm the owner that will speak up if something's wrong and bring stuff to the table. And we also teach them what we look for in VA. We want someone that has an entrepreneurial spirit that doesn't just care about money, that cares about self-improvement, and learning and building. And they can tweak that however they want. And by time you get to onboarding, you've already done an interview process and our interview process, we call it the care method, which is Communication, Attitude, Red flags, and Experience. And when you go through the attitude, that's when you find out what's important of the VA, that's when you tell them a little bit more about the culture. So by the time you get to the onboarding, you already know what the VA is like from the interview, you've already kind of told them what the culture is. And the onboarding is more of that chance to reinforce it and make it very clear what you put up with, what you don't put up with, and really encourage the VA that, hey, like, it's okay, if you're not a good fit for the culture, like we want to create a win-win for you and for us, where if there's a company that's a better fit for you in what you're looking for, then we want you to go take that opportunity. So it's really educating our client base to figure out what their culture is, figure out how to find out if the VA has that culture and how to communicate that to the VA, that isn't in an intimidating way where they're maybe a little bit shy, they might accept the job because they need a job and really making sure that it's a fit for everyone.


Kelly: Got it. Okay, so you are making sure that they understand that they have a voice as well. And they can bring up different concerns or different things that they need in order to do their jobs well to support the organization.


Nate: Absolutely. We have clients that will send us screenshots of them communicating with the VA, and sometimes people in the US, including me back in the day tend to be a little bit more direct, a little bit more aggressive when we're handling issues or something comes up and sometimes we have to teach them to hey, take a step back, approach this a little different way. Because a lot of times they'll just retreat and become shy and tell you what you want to hear, which isn't really good for anyone.


Kelly: Right. Well, that's where the more feminine language comes in.


Nate: Hundred percent.


Kelly: All of that. Yeah. Okay. So as we start to wrap up, I mean, what would you say is your very best piece of advice or pieces of advice for agency leaders who are not already working with a virtual assistant, but are considering doing so especially right now?


Nate: So there's two steps that I would take before you even get into the interviewing, onboarding, training, and managing, and that's figuring out what your budget is, which is incredibly important. A lot of people skip this step. They hire someone, and they realize I can't afford them. And we have a free VA calculator on the Outsource School site. You can do the math yourself, but you want to figure out how much money do I make every month. How aggressive do I want to be in my hiring? Do you want to invest 50% of your profits? 10%? I tend to be around 20 to 30. And from that, you can figure out, hey, the average VA is 5 to 10 bucks an hour. How many VAs can I afford? Can I hire, afford three full time, one part-time, 10 hours a week, 20 hours a week, whatever it is. Once you have that, create a list of everything you do on a day to day, week to week basis.


Kelly: And not just you as the agency owner, but some of your team members as well?


Nate: Exactly. I like to start with the actual owner, because usually there's a lot of very easy stuff that can just quickly get off their plate and you can get the 5 to 10 hours a week back but then it becomes your team depending on what your budget is and how many VAs you can afford. And by ordering it easiest to hardest, that's a really good starting point to find the easiest tasks that you can relocate 5 hours from day to day operations or repetitive tasks that you know how to do into the strategy, the sales, the expansion, the marketing. And once you figure out how many you can afford and what tasks you want to take off your plate, then the interview process begins.


Kelly: Okay, great. Well, I'm definitely going to put a link to that as well as just a general link to into the show notes. And Nate, just want to say thank you so much for joining me today. This has been really, really helpful.


Nate: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

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EP 79: Bringing Awareness to Our Blind Spots, with Amira Alvarez


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Amira Alvarez talk about how past programming keeps agency owners from leveling up and why it’s so hard to visualize ourselves being in alignment with what we want. Watch or listen (and share!).



 EP 79: Bringing Awareness to Our Blind Spots

Duration: 28:11


Kelly: Welcome to this week's episode of Thrive, your agency resource. Today, we're talking about how to bring awareness to our blind spots. And I'm joined by Amira Alvarez, founder and CEO of The Unstoppable Woman, which is essentially a global coaching company, helping entrepreneurs and creatives achieve their dreams and goals in record time. Amira, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited.


Amira: I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.


Kelly: So your personal story is really rooted in figuring out how to get out of your own way, which is like the thing that none of us can seem to figure out in a short amount of time. So can you do a little storytelling for us to kick off the episode? 


Amira: Absolutely. So my personal story is like life is good but it's not great. It's not extraordinary. And without diminishing the good, how do you get to great, how do you get to extraordinary, how do you get to be living the life that you have in your mind's eye, like your aspirational life, without diminishing the fact that we're humans with human struggles? And there's going to be stuff that comes up, but like, how do we really go for more. And I looked around and there were people who actually had pinnacle lives. And in their lane, they had pinnacle success. And I'm more of a renaissance person. I'm not Michael Jordan who's gonna be like the best, or let's use a female example, Serena Williams. They are in their lane. How did they do that? It was almost like I used that as an excuse, like, oh, they're just a tennis player. They can concentrate all that. And here I am. I'm a generalist at life. I want to excel in my business, of course. Well, that was enforced to me. But I also want to have this delighted lit up life in all aspects. And so, I kind of use that as an excuse. And at some point I realized, I don't have a clue how to do this. I'm staying in the good all the time, right? It never got to pinnacle. And, you'd have these little moments of highlights, but it never really got to that high level of success. And it never dropped super terrible.


Kelly: So like complacent? Do you think it was complacency?


Amira: I didn't see myself as complacent. I saw myself as an action taker, actually kind of driven and ambitious and like top of my class and all of that. I would never have self-describe myself as complacent or lazy or any of that. In fact, I think that's a real key part of this story, which is, I understood hard work. I understood drive. I understood going for excellence. I understood that but I wasn't actually getting the results that I thought that equation like hard work, I bought it, hook, line, and sinker, “Hard work gets you the results you want.” And hard work is part of it. Life, you need to put effort into things. But that wasn't the key for me in terms of scaling my business. And when I had this wakeup call, it was the end of another 12, 14, 15 hour day like it was a long day. And I was at the end of the day, I was sitting on the floor of my office leaning up against the couch that I had in there with my laptop on my lap, trying to get one more thing done and here's the sort of behind the scenes ugly truth of it. I was still in the clothes that I had slept in. They weren't sexy clothes. They were dog haired covered sweats with like the big T-shirt. I'm all about comfort also, but like, it was not an elevated experience. I hadn't taken a shower that day and I hadn't brushed my teeth and it was like 7 PM at night. So there I was, sitting on the floor of my office, like all of this. I hadn't brushed my teeth. I hadn't washed my face. And my husband is like, hey, baby, come down for dinner. And I'm like, calling down. Yeah, I'll be right down. Just need to get one more thing done. And of course, one more thing was another thing, was another thing, was another thing, and 20 minutes, 40 minutes passed, and he's like, hey, baby, I'm starting for dinner. Not out of resentment or anything but like, you do you but I'm gonna have my dinner. And I was like, I cannot sustain this. I'm not getting the value out of this. I'm not actually getting ahead. I'm just in fear. I'm in fear that if I don't do the next thing, the House of Cards is gonna fall apart. And so at that point, I was like, there's got to be a better way. I understand that intellectually, I'm using my rational brain here. And there's got to be a better way. But I'm not I'm attached to this way of being. And I can't see myself out. And at that point, I went on a search for how to break through, how to actually do life and do business differently. I studied the tactics, the strategies, marketing, and how to create your business and all that, which is absolutely essential. And what the key for me was learning how my subconscious programming was stopping me and how I had a self-image that was attached to doing in a particular way that I didn't even understand existed, but was driving all my actions and not consciously but unconsciously on autopilot. When I figured this out, and took the next level actions, like because the awareness is one part, but then there's action, I went from making 138 a year to making 700K a year. That blew my mind like that was something that I personally thought I could do it. That wasn't my self-image. It’s what I wanted, but the reason it blew my mind was I didn't think I could do it, but I did it. And then keep scaling, keep going across the 7 figure mark, all of that. And now this is what I teach regularly, and help people break through.


Kelly: Right. So you hit on something that the episode that I had Aaron Rose on. He talked about past programming. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's probably a little bit more of an unfamiliar concept to most of the people listening or watching.


Amira: Absolutely. So ever so briefly, we have a conscious mind and we have a subconscious mind. Conscious mind can accept or reject things, can make choices. It's where we think rationally about X, Y & Z then PDQ. All of this stuff. Our subconscious mind is where our programming lies. We were an open fishbowl. Meaning, we couldn't reject anything from our outside environment up until the age of say, 7 to 10. And so we're like this open fishbowl, everything in our environment comes in, and we create a belief structure, our paradigms, the meaning, the lens through which we see the world and our self-image, the meaning that we are ourselves. And, this works in a lot of ways. This is how we're socialized. This is how we're raised. In lots of ways that works, but in some fundamental ways, it doesn't work if you were brought up to think, say you're in business for yourself and you know that you need to make sales to run your business. Otherwise, it's a hobby and it's not a business. But if you were brought up to think asking for something, asking for what you want is overstepping, or you're asking for too much, then you're gonna have a really hard time asking for the sale. And that's a very specific example. When we're kid, we're in the toy store, and we're like, hey, mommy, I want the big wheels or I want the new tennis racket or the Barbie or whatever your thing was. And maybe ask mommy, maybe ask daddy, whatever it was, you asked for something. And your parent probably said something that either was a no or not now, or maybe later or if you jump through this hoop, you can get it or if you put that on the list, you can get it. There's something around asking that wasn't okay. And then we layer onto that. They probably had money stuff, 98% of people have money stuff. And they were like, oh, I can't afford that. We're not going to make rent this month. And I'm going to say something to deflect it. But energetically, we know that we've done something wrong because they feel guilty about saying no, or they don't feel clean about that.


Kelly: Right. And we've caused that, in that primal parent, that primer.


Amira: Correct. And then you have a belief in your programming and your subconscious programming that says, you're not conscious about this at all, okay? It's like just this underlying thing. Asking for what you want is dangerous because mommy gets mad and cuts off the love. And we know that our love, like how we survive as kids, how we know we're gonna survive, is if that love connection is still there. Because mommy and daddy were parents. They were where the survival came from. We know that instinctually. So there's a ton of these. This is just one very obvious example. That wasn't obvious to me at all when I was starting this. Now to finish this teaching point, the subconscious is running this program. It's on autopilot. And it is telling your conscious mind what to think about everything that comes into your world. So using that sales conversation example, again, you're in a conversation with a potential client, you're presenting your proposal, and they say, I want to think about it. Your subconscious says, oh, okay, that's fine. I'm not going to ask for anything else. So it doesn't put a follow up, call on the schedule. I teach people how to have a sales conversation. You have to ask some follow up questions there. You have to say, what is it that you need to think about? I'd love to speak to your concerns. What is it that you want to go back and think about? Because oftentimes I can help you work through that. Not pushy, not creepy, or weird; it's of service. But if you don't think you can ask, you will interpret that as oh, they'll just get back to me. And then you wonder why you're not making any sales.


Kelly: You’re not closing.


Amira: Right.


Kelly: It's so interesting. There was a blog post that I wrote a few months ago, that was along these very similar lines, but it was using the attachment style theory or attachment theory. Mary Ainsworth study in psychological development and how attachment theory from my perspective leads to exactly what you're talking about, difficulty with new business, difficulty for asking for what you need. Difficulty closing the sale. And like how a person's response, whether they decide, hey, we're gonna choose a different agency, or whatever the situation is; how that response and how you respond to their respond is actually from childhood. I mean, we might call this like past programming or attachment style or all of these different things. There's a ton of different ways that you can sort of contextualize it. But it all comes down to the same thing, it's this program that's running underneath the surface. And so, what about in terms of like our self-image, being in alignment with what we want? Obviously, this is part of why it's so difficult, but I would imagine that there are other reasons or other factors why it's so difficult for those two things to be in harmony.


Amira: Absolutely. So one of the ways that I help people intellectually understand this because we need to have an intellectual grasp on it. So we can then use our conscious mind to make different decisions because your subconscious is going to just keep going. The way to change is to make a different decision. But that's very hard if your subconscious is telling you what to think about every decision that you have to make. So we have to reprogram our subconscious. And one way, we need to do is to look at this our self-image and remap that. So, if you have a self-image that says like, I am someone who only can charge a certain amount. So let's say you have the self-image that you're not supposed to be the pinnacle person or the person who knocks it out of the park and you're not supposed to be using the example that I started off this conversation with, or the bottom of the class, but you're supposed to be like top of the class but don't stand out too far. And you have the self-image. And you have that self-image that you have to struggle for your success. That was one of mine. Like, if I didn't struggle for it, I wasn't worthy. There's many more but you have this image of yourself of how the world works and who you are in it. And you have a cybernetic mechanism, which is your subconscious programming that's going to, here's your self-image, it's like a target on the wall, and you're going up to your new idea of what you want your business to go to, Kelly's coaching you and you're like going gangbusters, and then realizes that you're going to miss that target and it will pull you back down. And this becomes this famine cycle, all of that because you have a target that says, this is who you are. It's like a heat seeking missile or like the cybernetic mechanism on your thermostat. If you set it to 70 and you get to 72, it's going to bring you back to 70. You drop back to 68, it's going to bring you back to 70. That's how we work. So we're constantly doing things that bring us back to our self-image, our target, and we're completely unconscious that we're doing this.


Kelly: And that's where I think some of these things like fear of failure, fear of success, a lot of those like the big fears that our subconscious or unconscious, those are the things that bring you back to that thermostat setting. I think that's a great analogy.


Amira: Yeah. And it comes out in the most reasonable ways that you will agree with. So like, let's use the sales example, again. You're doing great. You're making sales. You're on target for your new big goal. And then your subconscious is like, whoa, you're going in the wrong direction. And suddenly you'll have a team issue. Three people leave. You have to hire new people. There's a real issue there. It's not that there's not a real thing that you have to deal with. But you take your eye off of the sales ball for a month, and you start, you don't make sales. This is the feast or famine cycle. But it your subconscious got you to agree with stopping to make sales because you had to deal with this team issue. So it's completely reasonable. But it's this mechanism at play. And you have to break through on that, on all these friends but consistently, stick to where you're going, and take action that's in alignment with your true goal, not with your subconscious. And it feels like oil and water, like all of you is going to be saying, you got to deal with the team stuff. And that comes first. When you really have to be consistent. Did I do my outreach today?


Kelly: So what we're overarchingly talking about are really these blind spots that we have, because they're blind because they are unconscious. So at a high level, what is your methodology when you work with clients? What is your methodology for helping people see those blind spots and bring awareness to them?


Amira: Yeah, so there's a lot of different angles, pathways to that; of course, not one size fits all. But fundamentally, I ask them about where they want to go. So we get super clear on their goals and we make sure that there's more meaning behind them, that they want it badly enough because mediocre goals, you won't do the work that's required to break through. You need to be madly in love with it even if it scares you. So for instance, that year that I made a big quantum leap. I was saying, I want to make a million dollars. I heard that you could make a million dollars a year. Why can't I? Okay, I'm gonna try for that. I didn't know how to do it. I made the decision. I was going to do it before I knew how it was a big juicy goal. And if I had chosen like I had made 138 the year before, if I had chosen say, let's get to 200 this year, which is a completely reasonable incremental goal. I would not have been as excited or pushing, really driving myself. And having that bigger goal created new ideas of how and methodologies and where. So first, I really get clear on where someone truly wants to go and then we look at what's stopping them, what has consistently gotten in their way. We have a whole conversation about that. And then we come up with two prongs there. There's like coming up with the tactical plan to get them from where they are now to where they want to be like the business model, all of that. And then in the process of talking about the business model, generally speaking, all the resistance comes up. I can't do that because X, Y & Z, and then we go under the surface. Where did that start? Like, where did you learn that? Because here's one of the things about working with someone who has done it before has done what you want to do. They're at a higher level of awareness than you are. When I hired my mentor. I had to get over my DIY. Like, that's the only way to do it. That was a self-image thing. And I can only be truly successful if I do it on my own, scale life, much less a business. Like if you do everything yourself. I was really stuck in that. So I hired someone who had a higher level of awareness to bring me up to that level of awareness. I was working here, not here. And that's one of the tricks of quantum leaping. Like you bust through that level of awareness. So when I'm talking to someone, I'm working from that higher level of awareness, and very directly and emphatically, like I don't dance around things, and I will tell them how they're not seeing the truth of the situation. I will tell them specifically, you're caught in this lie. This is the lie you're in. That's not true. Let's look and I will show them how it's not true.


Kelly: And where does it come from.


Amira: Yeah. Because here's the thing, Kelly, we think it's true. We're in the forest for the trees. It's not like, I don't want to believe it, or that happens to other people but not me. We actually think it's true. So busting that open very directly and then really quickly giving them a new action that's going to create an effect that's different, so that they solidify the work.


Kelly: Yeah. So let's sort of wrap up by talking a little bit about universal law. So this is like the concept or the principle by which you're guiding these clients. I definitely subscribe to this theory or this concept as well. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about that. Because that's just a fun topic.


Amira: Oh, my goodness. So actually, it's more than a fun topic for me, like it is. I mean, I know what you're saying. I love it. It is what changed my world, understanding the universal laws of success, and studying them and not just studying them, but living them, holding myself to a higher standard. So like, what does this mean? I'm having some negative experience right now. What truth do I need to bring to this to bring me to the next level of awareness beingness experience? And when I use these laws, it clarifies everything. It gave me the roadmap to success. And here's the thing, Kelly, I don't know about you. But growing up, I was very reactive. I was a child that wanted to please my parents and I learned right and wrong from that reactive place. And it wasn't based on some core principle of truth. It was very outside driven. So if you'd see me 10 years ago, you would have seen someone who outwardly looked confident, but internally was jumping through hoops and trying to figure out how to do the right thing. And you have no idea what you're talking about. Like, if it's the right thing, it's the right thing. And I didn't have an internal grounding of that. And so I was completely outside driven. I was completely reactive. I was living in fear all the time, even though I wouldn't have necessarily named it that way. Like did I do it wrong? If someone is upset at me. Am I going to fuck this up? Like, all of that that's fear. And it was because I did not understand. I did not understand where security comes from. And as part of that, to be very specific for people in business, but also for people in the workplace and jobs where they work from silence for someone else, I did not understand where money came from. And in our culture in our society, if you don't know how to create money, you will always be in fear in all your relationships. Because money touches all those relationships. And so you are going to be jumping through hoops trying to do the right thing for other people, because you are afraid of not having enough for survival. Because you actually don't know how to create the money you want when you want it. It's like a mystery. And when I learned these laws of success, which I love teaching, I got it like I understood the creative process. I understood how to create anything I wanted, whether it was money or some other goal. Like we were joking earlier about having great sex. And like, my company stands for delightful life in all areas like let's be unstoppable everywhere. And I did not used to think that that was possible for me. So I had to change my self-image. I had to do the belief work, but I also had to learn the creative process. And part of that is using the laws of success in universal law. One of them is the law of clarity, which says if the desire is felt, the supply is ready to appear; everything is created as a whole. There are no halves or fractions or a human creation. But in life, there are no halves. So if I want to be someone who's in a lit up relationship, having amazing sex, having intimacy, whatever you want, that was one of the things I wanted, the desires felt the supplies ready to appear. Now I have to understand how to work that to the next level.


Kelly: Right. It doesn’t just appear and then like, okay, great, I'm done.


Amira: Yeah. But understanding that if you want something, if you truly want it, it's there for you. Now it's your job as a human being to tap into your creative agency to make that happen.


Kelly: Right. I love sort of just like underscoring the whole conversation with this, because it really pinpoints that this is about an integrated life. Like we're talking about money, we're talking about relationships; you're talking about business development, all of these things. And like, as an agency owner, creative leader, there's no difference between you as an individual and you as the owner of a business, like you're the same person. And so what you're talking about in terms of the whole, you could sort of apply that into the integration of life, like you're not a fraction of a person here and a fraction of a person here. Your one whole. So I just I really appreciate wrapping up with that because I think this whole idea that we've had for so long about work life balance is such a misnomer. It's work life integration. And the better that you get at these things in your personal life, it's just naturally going to transcend into how you're running your business because you're showing up fully. And I think that's what it's all about, delightful life.


Amira: Yes, absolutely.

Kelly: Amira, thank you so much. I love this conversation. Totally speaking my love language, as you know. So thank you so much for joining me today.


Amira: You're so welcome.

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EP 78: Remote Team Success, with Ryan Malone


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly talks with Ryan Malone of SmartBug Media about how remote teams at service-based firms can be successful. If your team is still struggling to make WFH work without the whiteboard to huddle around, listen or watch (and share!).




 EP 78: Remote Team Success, with Ryan Malone

Duration: 17:45


Kelly: So welcome to this week's episode of Thrive. I've got Ryan Malone here, CEO of SmartBug Media. Today, we're going to be talking about remote team success and what that looks like in our current world and the future of it. So Ryan, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited about the conversation.


Ryan: I appreciate it. Thank you much for having me.


Kelly: So tell me a little bit about your agency and your entrance into it because I know that that looks a little different from how most CEOs started their companies.


Ryan: Yeah, we took a little bit different path. My background, I ran product marketing division of Seagate, and then did a couple early stage companies in executive marketing roles. And what we found was that when we hired agencies, the partners would typically sell the work and then we did a lot of marketing strategies. So people that weren't really tuned to do marketing strategy did a lot of the work. And we felt that there was a different way. So I asked my friends that were also technology marketers if they had the same issue, and they did. So I decided to quit. And the big decision that we made was when I was 17, my father passed away. And so I knew that I didn't want to be the CEO who didn't see his kids because life matters. And at the same time, everybody's been, they've worked for that leader where you come to work and they’ve never been to battle with their team. They have no camaraderie. They don't have any scars on their back to show. And nobody wants to work for that person. So I didn't want to be the CEO who was never there. And to us the only option at the time, and this was, gosh, 12 years ago, was to be remote. And so we felt like if we could create a company that offered a challenging work environment with people who you had this deep intellectual trust for, doesn't mean you're going to be best friends, but you should go to work knowing you have smart people that have your back. But at the same time, create room for memories, because the truth is you and I are not going to remember this phone call when we're older. But you're going to remember what you do this weekend with somebody you care about. We would have a winning formula to create great people and grow our business. And that's what we set out to do.


Kelly: Yeah, great. So talking about remote teams, how do you think our experience with this pandemic has shown leaders of service based organizations how efficient remote work can actually be?


Ryan: Well, it's interesting, right? Resiliency does interesting things to people. And when you're put into a situation where you don't have the things that make you a creature of habit, it forces you to adapt. And so if I'm in an office, the little things like nonverbal communication and the chitchat at the office, like in the coffee area, and things like that, those are kind of the glue that holds the company together, but they also for some people can be big distractions. Like when we interview people, we look for people that, let’s say things like, oh man, that period of time where I can just shut my door in the morning or when no one's there, I'm really efficient. And so you start to figure out when you don't have these comfort things that it can actually be much more efficient because you end up focusing on process and handoff, I always say like in a relay race, it's not the speed of the runner, it's the efficiency of the handoff. So when you don't have an office, and you're forced to literally give somebody everything that they need, the first time you start to get really efficient. Your communication has to be better, or else you fumble. And so those things illuminate all of these areas that you can make for a more effective company.


Kelly: Yeah, and illumination is a big key right now. Right? A lot of things are coming to light. I think that there's been sort of something that you've said in the past that there are a lot of CEOs who feel like there's this false sense of trust, when they can see like the tops of their employees heads over their cubicles, right? Talk a little bit about that for a second, because I do I like the idea of it being a false sense of trust. But I think that a lot of people might have some pushback against that, that might trigger something or that might hit them in a certain way. Because maybe they really believe that intrinsically there is a trust that's created. If I can see you sitting in your desk and working, that must mean you're working. And that must mean that we're doing good things and that you're productive. And my agency is going to be profitable. And like there's the script that runs. So yeah, so talk a little bit about that, because I find that really interesting.


Ryan: Yeah, it's funny, and I can tell you a story that illustrates it. So a number of years ago, I'm on this master's group with some other agency owners. And a number of years ago, one of the agency owners was so excited because he was installing the software that would take a screenshot from a webcam every like two minutes or three minutes or something like that. And he was like, it's so great because I can see that everybody's working and this and that. And after I pulled myself off the chair, I was trying to articulate that you just spent two weeks, three weeks a month vetting this person. They’ve spent countless hours demonstrating their trustworthiness. You've had four or five people interview them. You've decided that you're going to invest the capital of your company, and if you're a business owner, like a piece of your potential future in this person, but you don't trust them enough to let them sit at their desk and do their work. And so I think, there's this kind of like, legacy, feeling of distrust, where if I see you across the room, I see the back of your head that somehow that means you're productive. When you could very well be just be hanging out on Facebook, and it doesn't matter and you get this like weird, kind of false sense of security. And so I try to tell people that if you trust first and know that 99% of the time the person that you've gone through all of this vetting with is going to be just as active and happy in a remote environment as they are in an office environment. In fact, they might be more productive. We often find that people that come here from an in house situation say that they have tighter relationships with people and feel more like they're more supported. Like that shift in outlook of, hey, I did my homework, let's give them a chance to be great, is usually really empowering for agencies. And you have no choice to do that. But in a remote environment, you just have simply no choice but to take that path. And I would encourage people just to take a deep breath and know that you did probably a pretty good job and let them have some runway to do great things.


Kelly: Yeah, and I want to kind of stay with this for a second if it's okay, because I do think that from my work with agency leaders, from being an agency owner in the past, you're an agency owner, there have been many of agency leaders on the show. I feel like the recurring theme over and over again as to why we default to really making sure that people are in seats. I think it all comes down to trust and distrust, right? And so there was an episode that I did. I don't know way back called the trust-first mindset with Jay Tinkler, who's also an agency coach. And I think this is really important. This is the reason why everyone sort of had this freak out at the beginning of the pandemic. It's like, oh, my God, my team is not set up for this. How am I going to trust them? How am I going to know that they're not just lounging around in their pajamas all day? And like, where does that come from? And how is there some piece of advice that you could give to try to change that mindset for leaders who are still kind of like, oh, I can't wait to get back to the new normal where everybody's in the office full time and like that's what I really want because this is this is uncomfortable. This remote situation is uncomfortable. What do you say to those people?


Ryan: Well, I've done some of my best work in pajamas. So the first thing that I would say, but no, I think you have to focus on results. I mean, the simple truth in any professional service environment is that you will know because if somebody is not doing their job, whether it's good or not, because either their colleague will tell you, or your customer will tell you, and they will tell you faster than you will ever know by micromanaging them. And so, I would say instead of trying to micromanage every little thing that they do, and try to grip onto it, just wait for that, like trust your team. Put some controls in place so that teams are working together and let them go do their thing and try it. If you're really nervous about it, try it with one team. Just promise yourself, you're not going to micromanage one person. Let them do their thing, have them set goals, measure them against their goals, and you'll find that you hired good people. And if you just give them some rope, they will do well. It's all about like exposure therapy, right? Everybody's in this shock of doing something different. So if you can just let yourself deal with the discomfort for one piece of your team, they will prove to you that it's just the same. And in fact that you will probably find out that they're more efficient and effective than they were in the office when they had tons of distractions. So just kind of dip your toe into it a little bit, and it won't be that bad.


Kelly: Yeah, that's good advice. I mean, at this point in time, like I think the shock is definitely over or has waned significantly. But there is still like this culture question, right? So with regard to culture, what happens when we don't have that whiteboard to sort of huddle around?


Ryan: So in an agency environment, and even in a larger team, oftentimes when you get to a certain size, people tend to aggregate around the team that they work with or the department. The finance people go out with the finance people. The owners of account x go out with the owners of account x. If it's a big team in a remote environment, that stickiness is gone and what you find is that the stickiness is really common interests. So we do things like get to know you call. So when you start you do a 20-minute get to know you call with everybody at the company. And the only rule is you can't talk about work. And it seems really hokey. But the whole purpose of that is to let people find their tribes, because once they find their tribes, there's no more barriers. It's now like, hey, I have a group of people that are coffee aficionados, or basketball lovers or whatever. And now I've got people that I have an instant connection with across departments. And that glue I found is a better replacement for this departmental account oriented glue that you see in house and I would argue that that one tactic is one of the things that you can do from a culture perspective to get people tighter because when they start at your company, they have instant camaraderie. They have an instant support network. They have a group of people that they feel comfortable asking questions of, and it's just a great way to lay a solid foundation.


Kelly: And then from a collaboration in maintaining that perspective, you find that you have to kind of force it a little bit. So as a manager, you have to work really hard to just ask how people are doing because you might be having a terrible day, but you've got your game face on now. And then when this call is over, you're terrible day may continue, but I know that's not us. So I know that's not what's happening. But for a lot of people that is and so you can't, if I'm in an office, I can easily walk by and see that somebody's having a bad day. Grab them, go get a cup of coffee but in a remote environment, I can't. And so you have to just be almost awkwardly deliberate and just talk to people every once in a while and say, how are you? How can we make our company better at SmartBug? We have this thing called healthy SmartBug, which is like as a parent, you want to make sure your kids are happy, healthy, safe, and resilient until they can do it on their own. And so we will call people regularly and just say how can we make SmartBug healthier and the feedback that you get from that, and the culture that you build from that is really powerful because you know that they're heard. And you get the context behind it. And it really kind of pulls everything together.


Ryan: Yeah. And you're also letting them know that their voice matters. And like, isn't that kind of what we all want?


Kelly: Yeah.


Ryan: We just want to matter. We just want to be living fulfilled lives and doing good work. And yeah, I love that. I think that's a great component or a great aspect. Do you think that that healthy SmartBug is the component that sort of really acts as like a glue for the fact that you are such a successful remote team? I think it contributes a lot, right? So if you look at the phases of kind of your time at an agency, there's the on boarding phase that we talked about first. So how do you get somebody to the point where they're comfortable? They have a crew, a tribe that they can run with, and they have a support mechanism as they learn the business. And then the second piece he says, how do you optimize that over time. And that's where the healthy smartphone piece comes in. Because long after the 90 days, or 120 days, when people are getting acclimated, it's like people want to know that they have a voice. To your point, they want to know that the company listens. I think people are sensible enough to know that not every idea ends up being done, but they want to know that they do have a voice in everything. And I think as a leader, as a manager, you have to be far more attuned to the way people are feeling. And you don't have a lot of intangible ways to do that, that you typically do otherwise. And so that healthy SmartBug piece goes a long way in showing the human side of a manager. Because in an in-house environment, let's assume that I run into you in the coffee room. We chat for 10 minutes. We've built up some political capital with each other such that at 4 o'clock when they go to your office, and I'm like, hey, you're two weeks late on this thing. I really need this thing from you. If you've already, it's a tradeoff. Right? You've built up some capital. They know you're not the boogeyman in a remote environment. If I just send somebody a Zoom message, and I'm like, hey, where's that thing that you mean? It gets interpreted wrong. And so things like healthy SmartBug and face to face feedback, and this deliberately asking people like how they're doing replaces that political capital so that when you do have to do managerial things like tradeoff is there again.


Kelly: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. As we're starting to kind of wind down, I think there's a little bit of an elephant in the room that there is still a fair amount of uncertainty. I think it’s going to continue to be a lot of uncertainty, even as we move toward at the end of this year. How do we build a successful team around work life integration as a means for predictability?


Ryan: Yeah. So I think the one thing with all the uncertainty that's around and well after all the health stuff is gone. But just people are going to be new models and some people are going to think it's great and some companies are going to decide it's good for them, but not all the employees are going to be comfortable with it. And so all the things, those like create your comfort things that you're used to might be gone for a lot of people. But if you can say to somebody look, in a remote world, you have a flexible work schedule, there's stuff that you really need to do during work hours. And there's stuff that you really don't need to do during work hours. And to the extent that you can say to somebody, look, if there's something that's going to create a great memory for you and create a good life experience for you and you want to do it at 2 o'clock on a Tuesday, that's fine, because you're professional, and you're going to decide. I'm going to do that on Tuesday at 2 PM and on Saturday morning. I'm going to have a cup of coffee and I'm going to catch up on some admin stuff. I think to the extent that you can integrate your life and your work now, work life integration becomes kind of an anchor while all of this uncertainty is swirling around you. You can kind of hold onto that, because it's no longer the choice between work and social. It's like this work life integration enables all of those things more on terms and you can just get that done in a much easier way in a remote environment.


Kelly: Yeah. And also, isn’t it about like the owner or the agency leader really subscribing to and advocating for that flexibility that you're talking about?


Ryan: Yeah, we tell people to pick the two or three things at the beginning of the week. When you plan your week, pick the two or three things that are going to create a great life memory for you, put those in your calendar first and then work stuff around it, because you're gonna have to get your stuff done. It's just the way it is. There's going to be fires that pop up. It's just agency life. But if you know that no matter what happens during that week, those three things that you can write a journal entry on or have a great memory about. It totally changes the mindset of the employee to the point where now the company is enabling them to have a great life and you're getting the work done at the same time. Everybody wins.


Kelly: I love the fact that you specifically said, take those things that are going to create that great life memory and put them in your calendar. First, I really want to underscore that because that tells me a lot about who you are as a leader, and how much you actually care about your team. And your team knows that too.

Ryan: I appreciate that.


Kelly: Yeah. Awesome. Ryan, thank you so much. This was a great conversation and really, really grateful that we had it.

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EP 77: How Emotion Dictates Our Behavior, with Kevin Perlmutter


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Kevin Perlmutter discuss how emotion dictates behavior in the new now, the neuroscience behind it all, and how brands need to shift in order to speak to the rapidly changing emotional states of being.



 EP 77: How Emotions Dictates Our Behavior 

Duration: 23:56


Kelly: Welcome to this week's episode of Thrive, your agency resource. I'm joined today by Kevin Perlmutter, founder and chief strategist of Limbic Brand Evolution, the consultancy helping brands increase desire, engagement, and loyalty with a distinct focus on emotion. And that's actually what we're going to be diving into today. How does emotion dictate our behavior? And what are brands and creative agency leaders need to know, as we sort of enter the new now or are in the midst of the new now. So Kevin, thank you so much for joining me on the show today.


Kevin: Thank you so much for having me.


Kelly: So I do always like to start, especially with agency leaders, and I know that you've had some in house brand experience as well. What is the origin story of Limbic and why did you feel the need to go out on your own and create this consultancy? 


Kevin: Yeah, I started Limbic in early 2019. And it was after many, many years of working in the business for other agencies. I spent the first 16 years of my career working at ad agencies. And then for 7 years, I was a Senior Brand Strategy Leader and Client Relationship Leader at Interbrand, which is a global brand consultancy. And there I became a full on brand strategy leader for the clients that I was working with. I actually had an incredible opportunity to launch their first ever customer experience practice.


Back in 2008 or 2009, I created the infrastructure for that practice, train strategists in multiple offices around the network, spoke at a conference or two. And it was just an incredibly influential time for me in my career growth because I was really starting to think about the customer perspective, having come from advertising. This was really important to me at that time, and becoming really important in marketing and branding. I did a lot of other things there. But then in 2014, I had the opportunity to join a music studio that focuses on Sonic Branding, and my job there was Chief Strategist and Chief Innovation Officer.


And the role that I played there was one as an internal business architect to help the company evolve, to help think about offering expansion to help deepen the strategy capabilities and the innovation, ways of working for that company and for its clients. But more importantly, for me, the bigger takeaway was a deep understanding of behavioral science, and learning how to think about brand strategy and brand experience through the lens of emotion and how you want people to feel. One of the capabilities that I created there was a neuroscience based research capability. And I did that in partnership with an outside research agency. We customized it to be an exclusive capability of this music studio. And I really learned a lot about neuroscience based research, how emotion impacts behavior, and lots of other things that we'll get into details as we go.


Kevin: Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, so let's just talk about that. How does emotion dictate our behavior in what you're sort of calling or terming, the “new now”? How does that work? And like just from a 101 standpoint?


Kelly: Yeah, well, when I decided to form Limbic and bring all of these things together, I felt that there was a really distinct opportunity to think about emotion, and apply emotion to how brand leaders and CMOs strengthen relationships with their customers. This is something that is often talked about, and it's something that most friend leaders, most CMOS don't really give a lot of credence to. So one of the things that I think about quite a bit is the power that emotion has on people's decisions. So 95% of the decisions we make are subconscious and instinctive, only about 5% give or take depending on a situation are rational decisions. We're constantly making these instinctive decisions all day long.


And it's guided by our feelings. The name of my company is Limbic Brand Evolution. And that comes from the limbic system, part of our brain, which guides emotion, motivation, behavior, and memory. So all the time when I'm thinking about how to work with clients, and how to bring emotion based techniques into the relationships, I'm thinking about how is it going to make people feel, and using that as a lens for the different ways that I guide them forward. So another statistic that's really important is that when people are emotionally connected to a brand or an experience, they're 50% 53% more valuable than people who are just highly satisfied. So it really has tremendous impact on the way people behave. And sort of the value that they bring to a company as a customer. So I might not have answered your question exactly.


Kelly: What do you mean by 53% more valuable? You mean in terms of like monetarily as a lifetime?


Kevin: Yes, that's exactly what I mean, because they are more eager to buy your products. They're more interested in talking about them positively. And I carry that experience with other people. They'll go deeper into your product line. They'll be willing to try new things. They'll be more forgiving if they have a bad experience once in a while. On the flip side, 47% of customers according to the CMO Council, 47% of customers will abandon a brand experience if it's frustrating and personal, or they're just having a really bad experience, if they have not developed that loyalty to that brand. Definitely, I'm sure the statistic is higher for those who have not developed the loyalty because on the other side, it's gonna be a lot lower for those who are more forgiving.


Kelly: Right. So let's talk a little bit about the neuroscience behind it all because I think that that's probably the most interesting part. I mean, we all know, because even all of those CMOS and all of the people watching who are creative leaders, or listening are creative leaders, we ourselves are consumers. So we know that what you're saying is true. We know that our emotions guide our purchasing decisions and our behaviors in general in the world. But I think the neuroscience aspect of it is the most interesting and I think that gives a lot of credence to just as human beings, being sort of detectives, like wanting to know why do I do this? So neuroscience really helps to explain that.


Kevin: Yeah. So there are a few different things going on in neuroscience that actually do explain why emotion is so powerful. One of them has to do with the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and there's a great book that was written many years ago called Drive. And that book really explains this theory really well. And there are many others out there. But basically, what this book calls motivation 2.0 is really rooted in extrinsic motivation. And that's like give and get scenarios that if you do this, you'll get that and there's all sorts of information about customer relationships and employee to employer relationships, where extrinsic motivation and almost bribing people with a reward for doing something well, has a limited life span.


But when people are motivated intrinsically, it's based on something that they really desire, based on something that they really feel, something that motivates them to actually get up in the morning and do things. So as it relates to brands as one scenario, if brands are doing things to make people's lives better, which I believe is the appropriate calling for any brands in the world today, is to make people's lives better. If brands are really doing that, and communicating what they're up to in a way that gets people excited, that draws them into the experience, that makes them feel that emotionally, this is going to be something that they want to be a part of, associated with, that it's going to solve some unmet need or even unarticulated need in their lifestyle, that they're going to be drawn to that brand more deeply.


So intrinsic motivation is a huge piece. There are also things that happened to our emotions around cognitive biases. So we're walking around with cognitive biases all day long. And there are many very effective cognitive biases that can be applied to marketing and are successfully applied to marketing everyday by smart marketers, to help people make decisions in your favor. And I don't believe for a second that any of that is manipulative. Anyway, it's really tapping into the neuroscience of how brains work. And it's helping to guide people towards decisions that you would hope that they would make in favor for brands. Because it means something to them. But you can offer things up like the scarcity effect, when something is out of stock soon, when there's only a few that are available for sale, that's going to cause people to feel a little bit more compelled to maybe take advantage of it sooner if it's something they're interested in. If there are choices that people need to make between different options, there are lots of different cognitive biases that we have that inform those choices.


So for instance, the ambiguity effect means that if there's too many choices, people just are unable to make their decision. But if you know there's another one out there called the decoy effect, which this familiar example for the decoy effect is like as old as a wine list in a restaurant. There are certain wines that are on the book ends of the spectrum of that list that they know most people aren't going to buy. Most people aren't going to buy the most expensive wines. And very few people are going to be with guests and friends with the restaurants and buy the cheapest bottle of wine. But they'll typically buy something else within a range that's in between the two. And those are choices that marketers could make to help address how people think and how they make decisions.


Kelly: Yeah, I think about that in terms of like SAS platforms as well when you can subscribe on a monthly basis or an annual basis for some SAS platform and you have sort of like the good, better, best, the good options, but entry level option typically has very few bells and whistles, if any; maybe there’s like a free and then good, better, best. You might do the free version just as a trial. But once you jump up, most people jump up to the better option because they like sitting in the middle. So yeah.


Kevin: Yeah, it definitely helps to draw people in. But depriving them of a few things along the way is going to help them move forward. But when I think about the neuroscience of this, I want to make it clear. I'm not primarily focusing strategy on cognitive biases that sound like they're manipulative. If you're listening in the wrong direction. What I'm really thinking about is what's going to motivate people, what's going to help people make decisions in your favor, because they fully believe that what you do out there is most important. So when I'm working with clients, in addition to helping to think about the consumer motivations and how to link with consumers in a way that addresses their need, I'm also incredibly interested in thinking about what motivates the brand leader or the company leader, thinking about what it is that they feel is the most important thing they could be doing to help others is super important to my process.


And another area of neuroscience that I bring into it has been to do with the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system. And the difference between the two is that the sympathetic nervous system is really about fight or flight. It's really about asking questions that make people concerned and nervous and kind of put their guard up. So a technique that we all use with our clients with executive interviews, helping to understand what makes them tick. And I'm really leaning into questions that tap into the parasympathetic nervous system, when I'm asking interview questions. I want to understand from a client when their business is working in the way it should, what is their best day? What are they most excited about, that they do for the customers that they want to serve? What is it that they wish people knew about their organization that they fear some people don't and would give them a better impression of the reality of what the organization's purpose in the world is. So I bring neuroscience into the work that I do because it taps into the way people actually make a lot of decisions; the way it dictates their behavior.


Kelly: Right. And so the natural question for me after that is, how does all of that translate into branding? And then how do brands need to shift in order to speak to this rapidly changing emotional state of being that consumers are faced with at this moment in time? Which is different from anything that we've seen in history.


Kevin: It's such a great question, and it's the question that I've been dealing with for the last several months while all these have been going on in the world. And as a brand consultancy leader who prides himself on having, I think it's distinct and important approach to the way I serve my clients. I keep trying to think how it can become more distinct or what's most relevant in the work that I'm doing right now. I actually started this business with a belief that a focus on emotion, in how you want people to feel is the most important thing that marketers should be thinking of. And in the last few months, it's become clear to me that that is even more important than it ever has been before. I think it's super important to understand your customers. So first and foremost, understanding what makes your customers tick, what's driving their decisions and their behaviors is a lifelong pursuit of any marketer.


But right now, there have been so many shifts and changes in the way people are feeling and the way people are behaving and what they have access to and what they're afraid of. So people right now are looking for greater security. They're looking for more normalcy. They're looking for emotional releases from the stresses that they're dealing with. These are all things that brand leaders can tap into if they understand them. But on the flip side, they’re looking for things like contactless payments, contactless interactions with brands. They're looking for more healthy alternatives. They're looking to be more value conscious. There are some industries that are going to change dramatically forever moving forward, health and wellness and the tremendous increase in virtual health care is going to continue.


The doors are open. And as a great marketer, a friend of mine once said, “You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.” I mean, these things are out and they're going to happen and they're going to continue and people are enjoying them. So the things that marketers should be thinking about right now is in the new now, as all of this is changing on a daily basis. You need to stay in touch with what's going on in your customers minds. What's changed for them recently, that could impact not only how they might no longer need or desire, what you've been offering in the past. But what is it that you do in the world that you can actually bring into their lives that will make their lives better? That's what you should be thinking about.  How can you adapt your services to suit the needs that they have right now?


Kelly: And thinking about those things is super important. Right? But how do you recommend getting the data from the consumers themselves? How do you recommend like, either serving or what are the ways in which you think are the most impactful in order to get the most honest answers from the consumers that these brands are essentially trying to serve?


Kevin: It's such a great question. And it's just the question is, how much does a car cost? It's that age old question where there are so many ways to approach it, from a limited budget to a large budget. So if you have a limited budget or you're a small business owner. be observant, talk to your customers, understand what's changed in their lives. Look at research. Do a Google search on brands in your industry and how they've adapted to serve the customers in their local markets. Look at consumer trends and what's changed. If you look online, there's so much information you could find right now that robust research may not be necessary. You can send out surveys to your customer base to understand what they need most now and what things you can do to better serve them.


You can just talk with people. That's super important. But on the flip side, there are incredible research capabilities out there. When I have the opportunity, I like to use cognitive and behavioral science based research capabilities that truly understand what needs people have, what their fears are at a subconscious level. There are studies you can do rather inexpensively that allow you to tap into the subconscious, and then even understand how that subconscious reaction affects conscious behavior choices. So there’s an incredibly high correlation between how somebody feels, and then how they act. And sometimes research spends a little bit too much time, a lot of traditional research spends a little bit too much time asking people how they will act. But it's not wholly accurate, right? Because you're not tapping into how they feel. And they're getting back to cognitive biases or stated bias. The way people describe what they're going to do sometimes isn't the reality of their instinctive reaction. So I like to use research techniques that combine the two when I have the opportunity.

Kelly: What I'm curious about and this is a little bit of a curveball, but what I'm curious about is, so right now, if we're talking about emotion, when we're talking about either surveying or talking to people or whatever the methodology you're using, there are a lot of people, let's be honest about it, maybe myself included. Some days that we don't know how we're feeling from on a day to day basis. I mean, sometimes my emotions can change hour by hour. And maybe you don't have the answer for this, but I'm assuming that you could at least lead us in the right direction. How do we account for the fact that people are either overwhelmed? They're feeling so many things, or they're actually pretty numb, and don't necessarily know how they're feeling? How do you get the information that you need as a brand in a situation like we're in right now?


Kevin: Well, it's such an important question. It's such a great question. And, like everyone else out there, I'm feeling it too just that time when things change on a moment to moment basis, because of all that we're dealing with right now. And I think that the answer to the question relies on flipping. Flipping the perspective a little bit. So you asked a great question about how do we tap into consumers. How do we do research? How do we understand what they're feeling? But we're all humans. We're all consumers. And as a marketer, the most basic thing you can do, just focus on how you want people to feel. Think about how you want people to feel, think about what is in your arsenal, what is in your product line, what can your brand do in the world right now to help people feel better? What is it that you do that makes your brand special, your business special? And how can you put that out there in a way that makes people feel better? I really think that that's the most important thing you can do with or without consumer research. You can probably figure out some good answers.


Kelly: Do you find that some of those answers are really just doing a lot of maybe North star vision, mission, purpose statements, things along those lines? I mean, even though those change, like we know that those change over the course of time, but do you think that some of those answers are embedded in doing some of that work with what you said before, part of the beginning of your engagements is to talk with the executives.


Kevin: Yeah.


Kelly: I would imagine that some of that probably comes up in those conversations.


Kevin: It definitely does. I mean, brands are never going to be static. They're going to start a brand. Any brand, any business started because a leader felt that there was something important that they can do in the world to make people's lives better. Let's give the benefit of the doubt that that's how these brands and businesses started. Sometimes they get a little off course. Sometimes the world around them changes, the dynamics change. And what I like to do when I'm entering a relationship with a client is help them focus. I like to help them focus on what makes them unique and desirable. What is it that they are in the world do for people to make their lives better? And then how can we start to express that in ways that give them that guiding light.


And then when we think about the flip side, which is the questions we already talked about, related to what the consumer is feeling and what the consumer needs, I like to create that intersection. I said the name of my business is Limbic Brain Evolution. Limbic is that part of the brain that controls emotion, motivation, behavior, and memory. And my objective when working with clients is to create what I call limbic sparks, and limbic sparks happen when your audience is emotionally motivated by what you're all about. So everything I'm doing when working with clients is looking at those two sides.


What is this brand all about? What is their purpose? What is their guiding light? How can we bring that out in a way that is meant to help people? And on the flip side, what is it that the consumers, the audiences they want to reach need, want, desire could use right now, whatever the right question is, and then how do we connect the two? How do we find ways for that intersection to happen, because we're talking here about how emotion dictates behavior. And if you're creating limbic sparks, you're tapping into emotions that people have and your driving behavior.


Kelly: Really, really good stuff. I love this conversation. Kevin, thank you. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate your time. And best of luck with everything.


Kevin: Thank you so much for having me on the show.

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EP 76: The Sustainable Money Mindset, with Robina Bennion


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Robina Bennion uncover why the conversation around money is so difficult for creative leaders and how to transform one’s relationship with self-worth.




 EP 76: The Sustainable Money Mindset 

Duration: 19:57


Kelly: So welcome to this episode of Thrive, your agency resource. Today, I am actually here with Robina Bennion, a relationship coach for the soul, the self, and money. We are going to have an amazingly interesting conversation. Robina, thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I really appreciate it.


Robina: Thank you, Kelly. I am so excited to be here today.


Kelly: So today, we're talking about what we've determined we're calling the sustainable money mindset. And I'm kind of curious to know what that really means to you, and then how that sort of unfolded or manifested in your own life, bringing you to the career path that you've taken up to this point.


Robina: Sure. So to me a sustainable money mindset would be making choices with my money that I can maintain long term. Often the choices can be based on emotions or things that are happening unconsciously. And so I'm trying to be mindful of those choices and ensure that they're not coming from fear and I'm doing something that I feel like will benefit me in the short term. But really, if I look at it down the road, a couple of months, it really does not help me or my business. And for me personally, where I feel like I've implemented that in my life is when I left my career in public accounting. I'm a CPA. And I practiced for 23 years. I had gotten to a pretty high level in my career. So I was making a decent amount of money when I decided to transition out of that and that required me to make some big choices about my finances, and how was I going to structure things differently so that I could sustain my business in the long run.


Kelly: I'm curious to know, so it sounds like you were really successful with the CPA business. Did you choose to leave that because it just wasn't kind of feeding your soul anymore? It wasn't making you happy? Or what was the reason for that pivot?


Robina: Yeah, that's exactly what it was. I started working with a coach and I started answering questions that really I didn't even ponder which was, what do I want to do with my life?


Kelly: Oh I can relate.


Robina: Because I decided at 15 I was going to be a CPA. And that's what I did. And I just kept going forward and going on that path and doing everything that you're supposed to do within that career. I decided that when I was 15. I've changed a lot since then.


Kelly: I’m just laughing because literally we have the same exact track. I was like, I'm gonna be a graphic designer when I was 15 years old. And I was like, that's it.


Robina: Yes. It provided me a wonderful life but I got to a point where I wasn't happy. My career had kind of taken over. Whereas the majority of my career, I made it a part of my life, and then it became my life. So I was really unhappy with just who I was in general. And going down that path and asking the question of what I wanted, I realized, there's so much more that I feel I could be contributing to the world than just doing tax returns.


Kelly: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, we're definitely aligned. I think that this is such a resonant conversation for so many people who are listening, who are maybe owning creative or technology or media agencies, or other organizations. And I would bet a good number of the people listening are kind of nodding their head like, I've thought about that. But I've taken that thought, and I've really pushed it down because I don't want to look at that. Change is hard.


Robina: It is.

Kelly: Yeah. And I won't say that it was an easy process for me. It took me a long time to even decide to leave my career. I mean, 23 years is a big investment.


Robina: Yeah. I mean, that's almost basically your entire adult life.


Kelly: Right. So one of the things that I kind of picked up on from your website, which really, really struck me was woven into goals, dreams, and fears. There's always this underlying element of money. So the question there is, why is the conversation around money so difficult? I mean, it's difficult for maybe not every person, but it's difficult for a lot of people and specifically here we're talking about creative leaders, in whatever context you want to define that. But why is that conversation so hard?


Robina: I think I can only speak for myself personally. And I think part of it is that, again, there's these emotions that we don't even know that we have. There are beliefs and behaviors that we pick up early on. And then we kind of mimic them in our life in how we view money. Money isn't talked about. We talk about our relationships. We talk about our children, but we don't talk about money. And everybody has their own emotions woven into that, even how they set their goals and how they structure their business. Like you're saying, for creative people. I find when I work with creative people, they want to go into creative direction, but people would say, well, you can't make money out of that.


And there's this real love hate relationship with money and how it shows up in their business. And so I think there is this perception that when it comes to money, if you're not handling your money right, you're doing something wrong or people are just real private about it, like there's something to be ashamed of. And even for myself as a CPA, everyone would think, oh, you must have it all dialed in, you balance your books every month, and you're doing all of this. And so quietly, I was thinking, man, I must be doing something wrong because I had great spreadsheets. But my goals and my results, they didn't always line up. And that was the piece I felt I was missing like why are my goals and my results not lining up? And there was something happening at an underlying emotional level that was into all of that, that I wasn't aware of.


Kelly: Yeah. So I'm sort of talking specifically about that, a lot of the work that you do with clients is helping them create a guide to transform their relationship with money. So what does that often look like when you're working with someone?


Robina: Yes. So it's different for every client because every person is different, their history is different, and where they are currently is different. But I will take an example of one of the clients that I worked with when she came to me. She wanted help getting her finances kind of back in order. She had accumulated a little bit of debt and she tends to want to be debt free, and just wanted to help realign. But that was the same conversation that you and I were having, as she wasn't really happy in her career. And she wanted to make a transition in her career. It's all interwoven, because people are afraid to leave their jobs because of money, or they're not able to step up higher in their career or transition into a job that they're really qualified for, that they don't believe that they are.


So we started having conversations around all of that and what her end goal was, but it all started with going back to well, let's talk about your childhood and your life and events and look at what's happened and through that talk, through how those events have impacted the way that you're showing up today. And in that, when we first started talking, she didn't really share finances with her husband. They didn't talk about it. They maintained everything separately. So looking at where did that come from in her childhood? Why is she approaching her relationship with her husband that way around money? We just started uncovering all of that. And because we do that, I'm able to work with her, then when we get further down to create a guide for her, so that when something happens that can kind of rock the boat and get a little bit uncomfortable, it doesn't throw. It didn't throw her completely off track.

In fact, as we worked together for quite a while, towards the end, her husband got laid off from his job before all of this happens. So it allowed her to have a conversation with him. Even before then, they had started having conversations about money, they started putting things together jointly because she was able to identify where some of those fears were coming from and they weren't resting on him. They were resting in her, and then coming together working on their finances so that when they hit this rough patch, they're able to actually navigate it together. And she was able to do it with a lot less fear and a lot more comfort. But that's also in creating tools that were comfortable for her, because what works for me as a tool may not work for somebody else, and we have to take all of that into consideration. Otherwise, I'm setting them up for failure.


Kelly: Right. Yeah, it is about the holistic view. I know that we share a really, really similar approach and philosophy about how we can't look at these different things in our lives, whether it's money, or relationships or our businesses or whatever. We can't look at them as silos. Interwoven is a good word. Integration, but I think I guess just in our society, it's kind of like the things that are private, and more emotional, are over here in one bucket, and then who we show up at work with the perception that we convey to the external world has to be different.


Robina: Right.


Kelly: And I think that part of the world that we're living in now is that there is essentially a collapse of that happening in a really positive way that we can sort of let these guards down and start to really integrate these two, almost like different aspects of ourselves that we've created in terms of the differentiation but now they're coming back together. And I think it just makes for stronger relationships, like you say with yourself, and with money and with everyone else in your life so it's really good.


Robina: I was going to just touch that a little bit. And I agree, the one thing that I've been thinking about with everything that is going on, is there's not one person who isn't impacted. Whereas these last few years, I'm out in California, and we've had a lot of fires, but those fires impact a community. So while I may sympathize with where they are, I haven't been through it. So I don't necessarily know what it's like to lose your home whereas it's like we are collectively going through this. So it really opens the door to have a conversation with anybody, like how are you doing? How are you navigating this? How are you? How is your business? Like, I have business owners saying hey, can we talk this week? I'd love to know how other people are handling this, what's happening in business. And so, for me, personally, I'm enjoying that aspect of this. I can't say that I'm enjoying everything but at least that aspect makes my heart shine a little bit.


Kelly: Yeah, having the same experience. So kind of to bring it back a little bit to money and maybe business development. Having a business development strategy in order to increase our income and revenue on our companies, and to really develop that sustainable money mindset, that business development strategy is necessary. We can all agree on that. Some organizations don't have one. That's why they hire coaches and consultants and things like that. But having the strategy is not enough. So if an organizational leader, someone who is sort of sitting at the top of an organization has their own inherent self-worth or self-value issues, then any implementation of that strategy is really not going to be executed in the way that is going to set that organization up for success. So I want to talk a little bit about that because I think that’s something for whatever reason, we just have avoided. I don't know if it's just in the United States or if it's globally, but we avoid this conversation and I really, really want to talk about it.


Robina: Yeah, I agree with you but part of what I do is working with businesses and we have these plans in place, but we're not taking into account the emotional aspect of it. We're not looking at the whole picture and how it impacts the business. So what I do with business owners even, is like we break it down into compartments, and it's maybe you have your marketing piece and your sales piece. You have your administrative piece, you have your vision piece, and really how are you showing up in each of them. Because by looking at each of those components, you can see where maybe you're showing up the strongest and other areas where you're not. And with that awareness, then you can bring in somebody else from your team or if you need somebody from the outside and put them in place.


If they're stronger maybe in sales, for example, for creative people, I feel like for me, when I move into my creative space, it's a little bit more challenging for me to move into that marketing piece of it. Because I just don't feel as comfortable. So then it's, I might draw back from that. But having that awareness and knowing that whatever is happening in me, personally, is keeping me from pushing into that in the same way that I would another area of my business allows me to go out and get help from other people. But I think also it is just having an understanding, like, I'm just human, and it's natural, and that's going to happen in our business. But in order to move it forward, we have to also be willing to ask for help.


Kelly: Right. And one of the things that we chatted about a little bit earlier was this phrase that you've kind of coined like worthy is the new wealthy. I'm definitely stealing that. But I think it's great because I do think that this is where the conversation is going. I think we're going to be able to, and we've already started to see more emotional dialogue even in the context of business. And as we start to open up to other people, it gives us the permission to start opening up to ourselves. And if we realize that we have some issues around our relationship to money, and we've realized that that's rooted in self-worth, and we start to like really dig up all what's going on underneath the surface, if we can bring that up and start to really work through that, it really is worthy is the new wealthy. It says it all. So well done on that.


Robina: Thank you. I think it also helps when we start looking at that and I think identifying what it is that we're working against, but also understanding like this is something that came with us and we are truly worthy. And each person is, but it helps also to shift from that, like why is this happening to me? Like, how can I take this and turn it into something different? Like it changes the questions that we're asking. And I feel like when I just sit and say, well, why is this happening or why did that person do that, I'm almost just stagnant and dead in the water. I'm not making any forward motion in my business. But when I can move into like, okay, well, that happened, like I'm working with a company, and they're having to make some changes. And so I'm going to be one of those changes. And I could either be upset and say, well, why is this happening? Or I can just say, okay, well, how can I do something different in my business? Or how can I take this in and transform it into something new. That's the other thing that I'm looking at, like what new can I create in my business from this?


Kelly: Right. So as we are starting to wrap up a little bit here, how might you suggest that creative leaders start to take what we're talking about today, and sort of train for the marathon? Like this is a long term play. This is about change. It's about real change, very deep rooted like introspective change that's going to then extend itself to our relationship with money, how we run our businesses, all of that. How do we set people up for success for that long term play?


Robina: I think looking at it, just from what you're saying, like from a marathon perspective, is we have the tools; each person has those tools within them. They were running their business before we got to this point. Obviously, things are a little bit different in each person. It's different. But for me, personally, I went back to this plan that I created when things weren't kind of, going sideways so that I always had something to go back to. And it reminds me of doing marathon training. It's like I trained. I know what I need to do. I have the skills to do it. It is just like, don't be thinking about I want to get to the end faster. I want to make sure that I get to the end. So it's like creating a plan. I think of being, taking your time, don’t rush into stuff.


It's like I think of if you're in a storm, for example, and your boat is tossed around, your ship is tossed around, you don't just start setting sail in whatever direction. You stop when the water is calm. It's kind of like you get your bearing. You stop. You figure out what direction that you're going to want to go and then start charting the course to get there. So I do believe that's really important that as we come out of this and as every phase and whatever wave comes towards us, is even for myself personally is taking that moment to just get my bearings each time something happens so that I'm not making an emotional response. And I think another thing that I have found to be really important is having people that you can reach out to and connect with. If I share with people in advance like hey, this is kind of my plan if things go awry. Can you be there for me? Then we're supporting each other through that. And it's kind of like what I do is when I'm on a call with somebody, I can tell that everything is wrapped in emotion and they're not coming from that thinking part of their brain. It allows me to help guide them back on course, so that they're making choices from that thinking part versus from an emotional response.


Kelly: Right. Yeah, that's great advice. Well, Robina, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Really, really excited to have you on and really appreciate it.  


Robina: Oh I appreciate it too. Thank you.



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EP 75: Integrating Feminine + Masculine as Leaders, with Emily Soccorsy


On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Emily Soccorsy of Root + River get curious about how balanced feminine and masculine traits make the most effective leader




 EP 75: Integrating Feminine + Masculine as Leaders

Duration: 26:52


Kelly: So welcome to this week's episode of Thrive. I am joined by Emily Soccorsy, who is the co-founder and strategist at Root + River, an intrinsic branding agency for defiant leaders looking to scale their brand around their mission. Today, we're going to be diving into the integration of feminine and masculine aspects of leadership. And I've been so looking forward to this conversation. So Emily, thank you so much for joining me.


Emily: It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.


Kelly: So let's just, put it out there right from the beginning. The positioning of your agency is not like anything I have ever seen and that compelled me to be very drawn to it. So can you share sort of the path of how you arrived at it? Because it is just so different. It's so unique, and I'd love to just hear a little bit more about how that started. Maybe some of the work with your very first client.


Emily: Absolutely, yes. So thank you, because we work really hard to come at things from a different perspective and it comes naturally to us. But, yeah, let's see, 6 or 7 years ago, I was working. I was the VP of Corporate Communication for a human behavioral research company. And it had grown massively over the last 10 years in particular. So the brand was all over the place. I work directly with the CEO and he had 1000 ideas a day, and bought websites for all of them, bought URLs for all of them.


Kelly: I know not of what you speak.


Emily: Yeah, right. I remember I'd never forget, he handed me like the printout of all the URLs he had purchased. And I was like, wow, like, my God, Lord. And so I was really trying to get my arms around the brand in a very tangible way. My background is in journalism, mainly, and I get some PR mixed in there as well. And so I'm always looking for the story, right? I'm always looking for the lead. And it was just very difficult, very dynamic situation. And so, one of our major distributors knew somebody and he was a brand strategist. His name is Justin Foster, who ended up becoming my co-founder. But he and I began to have conversation around the brand, what it could be. He is brilliant and ended up bringing him into the company to help me sort of figure out what the brand was all about. When he came in, he did an amazing job. But he was like a street performer, right? He was playing guitar, hitting the drum kit, had the harmonica in his mouth. He's like facilitating and taking notes and doing strategy all at once and I just sat there going, that's pretty amazing, but I could make it so much better. And he had never really experienced someone like me where I was like, went up to him later and I'm like, this could be so much better. He's like, who are you? And let this conversation actually occurred. And I said, who are you? And so we have this like clashing of swords right away, but also, this deep alignment around the idea that every great brand is a spiritual experience. And people in business are so driven and they're so passionate, so spiritual in that sense, like they’re spirit is poured in their work, in their business.


Kelly: I like that you're redefining the word spiritual in this context.


Emily: Yes. I mean, that's how I deeply feel. I mean, having met hundreds of entrepreneurs and business owners. And yet, when it comes to articulating that, it's like a cliff. It's like they can't even navigate that paths themselves. And to me, that's a big injustice being a person who translates emotion into words just naturally throughout my life. So anyway, Justin and I had this meeting of the minds around this so he had a gig coming up and invited me. He's like, why don't you come join me for this gig? And, I'm gonna do my thing. I think he was maybe thinking he'd have another go and super impress me or whatever. But it was definitely this opportunity to work with somebody who is in the manufacturing industry in Chicago like hard-boiled Chicago guy. It was in Dallas, Texas. We rented like a conference room in a comfort suites or something like that, and spent the day and working with this guy, and going deep. I've always been an artist sketcher. Started college as a fine art major and left that behind. But it's always been a part of my soul. And I've always taken visual notes. So I just started taking notes in my notebook. And about halfway through the session, he's like, what are you doing over there? And I'm like, Oh; this is just the way I take notes. And he's like, well, can I see it? Like, yeah, sure. And so it was this moment of like bringing some worlds together. And at the end of the day, kind of immersed in our strategy and this deep dive into the soul. He was a puddle of tears essentially. And he said to both of us, I would have paid you 10 times what I paid you if I had known the power of what we were going to do. And we left the comfort suites. We got in the car. And it was just sort of that moment of like, exhale. And either I said, or Justin said, what was that? And the other person said, I don't know. But let's do it again. And it was just like, from there, we were sort of off and running. That was all we needed to realize this was bigger than both of us, and almost like a calling for us to come together and give people this missing piece, help them for that Canyon, and find a way to bring that energy of passion into the way that they articulated themselves in their business. So that has been what we call our intrinsic branding. We've played with the idea of calling it something else because it's so deep and it's pretty magical but it’s where we haven't done that.

Kelly: Yeah. I like the word intrinsic. I think, it's one of those memorable words that certainly like I said before, like compelled me to say I've never heard of an intrinsic branding firm. What are you talking about? Who are you? So yeah, learning a little bit about it certainly made me lean in. What I'm hearing is that there was sort of this balance or this dichotomy between you and Justin. And so I think, if you think about that, from the aspects of feminine approach, or feminine quality and a masculine quality, like being energy versus doing energy, we have this separatism around this. And what you showed just in that one story with that first client is that the magic and the power of what happens when you actually integrate the two of those because you need both of them.


Emily: Correct.


Kelly: I think that there's a lot of misconceptions in our culture about what feminine aspects and masculine aspects actually mean. I think that we have a lot of stigma around it. And I think that there's just a lot of misunderstanding and miscommunication. There was actually a book that you recently recommended to me Shakti Leadership. See that everybody? You have yours too. I mean, you told me about it. And I was like, I'm going right this second as we're talking to Amazon. But I actually wanted to share an excerpt from one of the books, early chapters, which is called transitioning from old to new, because I think that can sort of provide a little bit of basis for our conversation today. And something about it just really spoke to me. So I'm just going to read this if that's okay. There are structures and belief systems that have become rigid and calcified, causing people to behave in ways that are inconsistent with their humanity. This by no means makes us bad people. When we can look from the depth of our humanity and the humanity of others, we see that we’re all caught in some sort of a weird trance. If we can wake up from it, what’s waiting for us is love, compassion, forgiveness, commitment, courage and authenticity — true power. It’s just been blocked by the old way of doing things. There's something very powerful about that. And I think it's sort of embodies a lot of where we are right now. So just curious to hear your thoughts on that.


Emily: I agree. I love the word calcified.


Kelly: Yeah.


Emily: I love that because it is not cut off. The way that we did things in what we term, the old world and not in any derisive way. But in the way that things were, it is not concrete. It's just calcified. So there needs to be an energy through it and what else struck me out of what you read was looking from the depth of our own humanity. And I think that separateness really has been a division between that depth of humanity and everything else that we were doing and paving in life. And it was like this idea that we had to set that aside, really coming out of the industrial age, and even the imperial age of conquering and a lot of masculine energy and not in a bad way. Like that's why we have penicillin. Like, that's why we are able to have sophisticated water systems sanitation. Like there's so many beautiful things that came out of that. But we kind of did it in a very separate way in general.


Kelly: Yeah, it was imbalanced.


Emily: Yeah. And it was heavily weighted exactly towards that. And now we have this opportunity to sort of shake that off, break up that calcification, recalibrate from the deepness within us. And that's okay. That's actually what makes things easier and more difficult. Because I think there was another lie or another idea that was out there, that if you came from the depths of humanity, if you were that vulnerable, if you did show your spirit and your work, that was a dangerous thing. And I think that was true, because there were a lot of forces that wanted to bridle that energy. And in my experience, that has not been true for me. When I unleashed a little bit, and pushback against the way even I thought I was supposed to behave with those feminine qualities in a work setting, or even in my personal life; when I pushed back and I let it out, and I was unapologetic about it. That's when people rallied. That's when leadership was like, okay, let's try it your way. And so I really feel strongly that looking from the depths of our humanity at the way where we behave every day and that will lead to that loosening of those calcifications and new understandings of how we can be in the world, bringing the feminine, and also integrating the masculine. And Justin and I definitely do have that dynamic. And sometimes, we often say in our sessions, we set out what we call elements of trust, sort of create the space that we can work in. And one of them is there's no silent dissent. Silent dissent is this huge killer of ideas and momentum and breaking through to new ideas and understandings when we keep that dissent inside of us. But even in our relationship, we'll say like mom and dad fight, but they still love each other. Like we are going to have conflict where that is good, because we're bringing both of those energies forward and they do sometimes, but it's in the moment when they clash and then you keep moving.


Kelly: Yes.


Emily: That you keep integrating, and you keep searching and you release some things and you say, well, maybe that's overplayed there. Let's bring this in. Let's leave that out or no, this is the right way to go. Just that moment of collaboration. That's really where the magic happens. And for our clients, that results in better work for them.


Kelly: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's about having those difficult conversations, because there will always be difficult conversations. There's always going to be some whether it's in your personal life or in business with a client, a team member, whatever it is, there’s always going to be things that arise because everybody's bringing their stuff to the table. And so, if we have these difficult conversations, and we both can show up in a way where I'm going to listen to you, you're going to listen to me, I may not agree with you, but if we keep walking and we keep exploring, I think it's the exploration process where all of that magic is. And you relinquish a little. I relinquish a little. There's compromise. There's compassion and respect for one another. There's empathy on both sides of the table. But that's a practice, right? That's a practice. And having those difficult conversations or moving through conflict, whatever conflict means. It doesn't have to be aggressive. Conflict could just be, hey, this is how I'm feeling. And I know it's not gonna make you feel good to hear this.


Emily: Yeah.


Kelly: How can we move through this together? Are you in an emotional space right now where you're able to hear me? So this is all nuance, and I feel like as much as the society masculinity gets associated with power, I was absolutely of that mindset for pretty much my entire life. But now I'm on a completely different end of it where I'm like, no, all the power is in the femininity. And masculinity is for execution because we have to get something done. Like, we can't just all be staying in that being energy, but there's so much power in that.


Emily: I think the power right now is in the feminine because it has been so long sidelined and like pushed aside. And so we've neglected this power source that is available within all of us male or female. It's there. And so now it's something that you're finally coming back to, and it's this wellspring of opportunity. And it's like the masculine has just been so drained and so convoluted and used for other ends, manipulated in a way and it's really taken to the far extreme and I think that's an injustice to that masculine energy.


Kelly: Absolutely.


Emily: But I do feel that that power rising in the feminine and you mentioned too, it's how you come to the table and we're all ready to like have a coffee. But I think in actuality, people come to the table and they armor up. Like okay, we're going to have a conversation or we're going to dive into the soul of our brand, whatever the moment is, we just naturally armor up. And what I try to do in my life and work is just let down a little bit of those guards, let go of the old ways that are coming up. And one of our other elements of trust is you might be wrong. Have a beginner's mind. So this idea that whatever's coming out, like it might be, I might be dug into something, my ego might be leading here. I might be following an old way of doing things and it's okay in this moment to not attach to any of those ideas.


Kelly: Yeah, I think there's an element of surrender there. Right?


Emily: Yeah, absolutely.


Kelly: Surrender and grace. And these are things that we don't talk about in the business context. And I think we need to change that. I feel very strongly about that.


Emily: I think that's where the power lies, that's where the creativity begins. And for me creativity of power just like side by side. And that's what really comes through. And it's funny in our sessions with our clients, we say in the beginning, this is a time to let all the shit, bubbled up and been pushed down, whether it's emotional ideas, whatever stuff from your past, come up. Those are the moments when people allow themselves to do that and say, hey, guys, I'm not sure how this is relevant, but it's coming up for me. Let me share, that's when we start on the real path to finding something that's true and resonant. But it's that moment and you have to give yourself permission to go there. It's transformative.


Kelly: So your brand is basically well, let's put it this way, though. The way that you convey the services that you provide or the value that you provide is that you say, your brand is the culmination of your leadership decisions, right? So within that context, why is this integration between the feminine and the masculine aspects so vitally important?


Emily: It goes back to that division and I'm a huge fan of Parker Palmer. He writes about this in the Hidden Wholeness quite a bit. It's this idea that I'm a leader. I have leadership skills. Also, I have a company and that has a set of systems and processes, and oh the brand, this other separate thing.


Kelly: Silos.


Emily: Yeah, exactly. Right. And, no, it's all in one messy jar. I like mixing together all the time. And it's our rational mind constantly trying to separate them out and that's really a fool's errand. I mean, it really is. So the more we can go okay with all of that together, we often say that brand is the only thing in your work that touches every other thing. So how you live your life, how you live your work life, which is one of the same again, it is your brand. So your being the way you are a leader is the way your brand is. Our definition of brand is how other people experience what you believe. And I don't know a successful leader who doesn't have a set of beliefs that are guiding her and a lot of times they're guiding them in a very covert way, not that they're being hidden, but they're in a unconscious way. They haven't sat down and really done that deep work in their soul to say, this is what I believe, here's why I chose that word, and here's how I'm going to live it out. And they may have gone through a values process, but typically those are just again, done in a silo mentality. And they're done without the silos mentality and now we know that as a leader like one of our beliefs at Root + River is in beauty. And so the standard that's associated with that is create every day. And for me, that's like a constant reminder, a mantra. If I believe in beauty, what have I created today? How can I add beauty into this thing that we're working on? And so that is where as a leader, if you're tapping into the masculine, the feminine, consistently and you're really being mindful of how those are showing up in your beliefs, you can create a truly integrated leadership and brand style that will be also very genuine to your values and what moves you. And so it is a practice as you said earlier, but the main thing is like, do it in a way that it's all welcome. It's all one thing and there is no separation between your leadership style in your brand.


Kelly: Right. So just maybe to give some examples like how does that show up or guide creatives with respect to living their mission in their lives and their businesses? As you said, one in the same. Like, what are some examples as to like how they can really embody that mission, and then sort of transmit that or convey that in their lives.


Emily: So, again, kind of broken record here. It starts with the deep work of understanding truly what your mission is. And we often tell people, your mission, people will say in sessions, okay, do you mean like my personal mission or like for the company? It's like, yep. One in the same. Your personal mission, which in our definition is the thing you're here to do that only you can do, that has a direct line of sight into your work, into your agency.


Kelly: Does that show up like in the way that they build cultures? Does that show up in the way that they communicate with clients?


Emily: Yes, it should inform. It will inform the client experience. It will inform the culture inside of your institution, or your team. So for Root + River, our mission is to inspire leaders to go inward. It means the top and the bottom. Like if we're not doing that every day, then we failed. And also, if we do that in a way that will make a dent in the universe, like it will expand out and change people's mindsets. And so every day we're like, okay, is what we're working on inspiring them to go inward, and we're getting really practical, which we love to do. So let's add some magic back in here. Let's pause. Instead of telling, let's have them do a journaling exercise. So really can help be this wonderful guideline to help you make sure that you're being very mindful about the brand experience that you're creating every day.


Kelly: So it's almost like a measurement against the actions, the verbiage, like how we're showing up every day as leaders, in every context of leadership or life or whatever you want to talk about it. But it's a measuring stick of how are we showing up and are we truly integrating these two different aspects of ourselves, that feminine, that masculine.


Emily: Yes. Another client that we have. Her name is Suzanne Daniels. She is the owner of Brentwood Social House in Austin, Texas, which is a gathering space, tea, coffee in Austin. Her personal mission is she believes people need a place to experience love. They need more places to experience love. And so she has made Brentwood, this place where people can come and feel loved. And so that goes into every aspect, the food she serves. She recently added a play structure in the back of the facility so that families could come, so that people feel welcome to bring young children, that people weren't like locked in. And she's carrying that out right now even during the pandemic time. So she’s doing obviously takeout and she has blackboards out where people can leave messages of things. And the way that she's operating in this time in particular still focused on how am I going to make people feel loved when they're coming here to buy their coffee or their tea. So really informs the brand experience. And, when it's so emotional, we often say like our rubric for mission, it's got to be evocative of emotions. Because if you don't feel it, nobody else is gonna feel it either. It's got to evoke emotions. And it's got to be big enough to make a dent in the universe. And here's the tricky one Kelly. Your mission will bring up insecurities for you. It's tough. It's like, am I big enough to do this? So those are some guidelines to help people understand like the depth they need to go to understand what that mission is.


Kelly: Yeah. So I always like to ask as we start to wrap the conversation up, what piece or pieces of advice would you give to leaders who are just starting to consider all of this new language and the idea of integration of their authentic selves?


Emily: Well, this has been really helpful for me lately. So I love to share things that have resonated. So recently, I read The Soul of Money by Lynne Twist, and there was a line in there that we appreciate. And as a very driven individual, myself, I like to move fast. I like to get things done, and I'm very driven to be excellent at all I do. And I think in that pace, and that mindset sometimes really robs me of slowing down to appreciate whether it's things that I need to still work on, or excellent things I put out there and just sort of cast aside, to move onto the next thing. And I think looking at our abilities and looking at our masculine and feminine traits and how they're showing up, taking a moment to pause and appreciate the way we have showed up and then look at how we might show up in the future is an example of how we can appreciate what's within us and then let it go forward and then build upon itself and iterate in maybe more impactful ways. So I'd offer that up. That taking a moment to appreciate what you've done, where you've been, and then appreciate where you are in the moment and where you want to go. And really I love the word appreciate because it's not about self-gloss. It's not about being promotional or leaning too heavily on your strengths. It's about what we appreciate will grow for us. And that's a practice.


Kelly: Absolutely. I love that. Well, Emily, thank you so much for being here with me today and I use the word being on purpose. This is the conversation. This is where it's all going. So I really appreciate it.


Emily: It was just a pleasure to be with you. Thanks, Kelly.


Kelly: Thank you.


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EP 74: Where Fearless Negotiation Starts, with Mori Taheripour

On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Mori Taheripour, author of Bring Yourself, talk about what it really means to negotiate fearlessly. They discuss how mindful listening, curiosity, honoring one’s self, and the reciprocity of respect for one another’s value all play into the most successful negotiation



 EP 74: Where Fearless Negotiation Starts 

Duration: 20:84


Kelly: So welcome to this week's episode of Thrive. I'm super excited for today's show because I'm actually joined by Mori Taheripour, author of Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. She's also an award-winning executive and educator and this is the book. Very excited. Just came out in March. Mori and I actually met because she was the negotiations instructor for my cohort when I was in the Golden Sachs 10,000 Small Businesses Program in 2016. And she's literally been like in my ear through a renegotiation since then. So Mori, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's great to see you again.


Mori: I am so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me.


Kelly: So first, congratulations on publishing Bring Yourself: How to Harness the Power of Connection to Negotiate Fearlessly. I actually digested it over the last week and actually sent a copy to one of my clients who thanked me a million times over. It was sort of for me like a deep refresher. Your course, obviously it went much more in depth in the amount of time that we were able to spend together with Goldman Sachs. But it was a deep refresher. And it also aligned with so much of what I've come to know and believe right now. So did you finally just kind of like surrender to the call to write this or how did it come about?  


Mori: So it's really interesting because I feel like this chapter of my life that I've been into teaching. Now, the book, not only had been planned, I mean, it's sort of I stumbled across the teaching opportunity. Actually, I was sort of talked into that because I thought at the beginning, I was like, there's no way I am an introvert, like I'll melt in front of a classroom. And as they say, some people see something in you that you don't see in yourself. And so, I'm thrilled that I actually took that leap. And at some point, I started getting especially actually out of the Goldman Sachs program. They told me like something really special is happening in the classroom. And even though I felt it at Wharton, it became really sort of this dominating thought in my mind every time I left the classroom.

And I think it's because I've been an entrepreneur for such a long time that there was something like coming home in every classroom, almost like wanting to take care of people not to, as mothers often do with their kids. I want to make sure they don't make the same mistakes I made. It was some of that. But it’s just something transformative happened and with like the magic of every classroom, with the feeding of my soul, if you will, every time I sort of stepped into the room, I also became really aware of the fact that my students and this happens important too, but really, my students in the classroom see more of me than anybody else does.

I have more of myself and allow myself to be real, authentic and open and vulnerable in a classroom, which most people never see outside the classroom. So people who know me professionally, they don't see that side of me. So it makes you start thinking, what is it and how can I capture this? And John Rogers from Goldman Sachs, program, chairman of the foundation, said, “Why don't you go ahead and write a book.” And that’s literally the beginning of this conversation. I was like, a book. That's why I was pre-med in college because I took exams. I didn't write. But it was that little push that made me start thinking about it. It's been a long haul. It's been a long process, but it really started with what was happening in the classroom and thinking, I need to capture this. And then the book became an obvious choice for it.


Kelly: Right. And I think, most people would agree that you talked a little bit in the book about active listening versus mindful listening. It sounds like maybe in some ways, there was like mindful listening that was happening when you were hearing these things from other people, right? But just to talk about those foundational aspects in terms of negotiation for a minute, what is the difference between those two? And why do we need both of them?


Mori: So I think that active listening is always good, because it not only works for you, right? You're hearing more, you're sensing more. You're remembering more. I mean, absolutely. Especially when you do things like repeat what somebody just said, you're completely present. You're hearing everything they're saying, but you’re also I feel like it's settling it, like this is something you're not going to forget because you're doing whatever strategies people do to sort of actively engage in this conversation. I think mindful listening is something to that higher level, if you will, I mean, just the whole notion of mindfulness and stillness, if you will. You could be actively listening but still somewhere in the back of your mind.

That could be something that is sort of driving the conversation, driving your intention behind the conversation. Whereas I feel like mindful listening is really the quieting of all that in some ways. And the whole presence of your persona, I guess. You’re there sort of fully emotionally. You're sensing things. The whole emotional connection, emotional intelligence piece sort of comes in. And I don't even know once you practice it enough, I don't even know if it's something you have to be intentional about, because I think it sort of clicks into that when this becomes a big part of how you engage with people.


Kelly: Right, it becomes natural.


Mori: Right, but I think it's the connection of the two. One is much more active obviously. And the other one is really, I want to say it's complete. It's like every part of your sensory sort of jump in and take over and I think if you can do both, then it's great. Sometimes you can get really caught up in something and you're there mindfully. But, two days later, you're like, God, I wish I remembered that sentence that she said, which is like, the active listening part. But the two together are hugely important, I think.


Kelly: Yeah. And you talk a lot about, which I think is kind of a bit of an extension, like curiosity and presence and the combination of those two things, which a lot of people wouldn't typically associate with negotiation. But why is that combination so critical? I mean, obviously, the way that you're talking about this is there are so many layers and different aspects that over time become more natural as you develop your negotiation skills, but why curiosity and why presence?


Mori: Oh presence, that part is just easier based on what I just talked about in terms of the listening. To shut off distractions. I know you remember the no electronics rules in my classroom.


Kelly: I remember it very well.


Mori: And here we are, everything's electronic now, but it was so important to me to have people understand in my classroom that these distractions that we have around us, whether it's your phone, your watch, your iPad, your computer, TV, that now there's so many things that hold our attention, that we've become really good at getting a lot of information. But there's no depth to the information, right? So when you can practice, again, mindfulness being fully present. So the power of noticing everything around you, that I think is incredibly strategic in negotiations, obviously.

But it's also the thing that lets people know that you're seeing them and you're hearing them and you're messaging, everything your messaging says, this is a really important conversation fully present with you here. Nothing's more important. So that sort of goes to the curiosity piece. Because I think there's nothing more dangerous than to come into negotiations and think I'm so prepared, that there's really nothing else I need to learn, right? Like, I know exactly what I want. I know everything that I need to get to this deal. And so, you lead with that. Because, I was talking about compensation. I reserve the right to be smarter by the time we're done talking. So, I could have been wrong. I could have not seen something. I could have had biases that unintentionally, even in this conversation that that precluded me from seeing a better deal, a bigger deal, a better relationship. So I think the notion of curiosity says open your heart, open your mind. We don't know everything. And the more you go in, authentically curious, the more you can actually benefit from it. Very strategic.


Kelly: Right. And it's almost like, if you go in, like you said before, if you go in with this mindset of like I know exactly, I know all of the information, and I know exactly what the outcome is going to be or what I am hoping that my outcome is going to be, it doesn't leave any room for all of these other more creative solutions that the two of you can come together during that information exchange.

Mori: Right. And everybody has so much to offer us. I mean, we all have so many different experiences that I think curiosity level, to be honest with you, I think people has to be, what do you think is the number one characteristic of a great negotiator? I think I always lead into curiosity, because I think it has so much sort of involved in it like true curiosity means empathy. Curiosity means respect. Curiosity means openness to learning and understanding. And it’s powerful. It really is.


Kelly: Yes. And there's also a place of self-reflection in that too. Taking that sort of curiosity-driven approach to understanding others, and then kind of turning that inward. It sounds like your contention is that it's actually important for the management of emotions, which actually makes for better negotiators. Right?


Mori: Yeah, but not void of emotion. For so long, we've been told there's no place for emotions in negotiations, right? It's not personal. You can bring that with you into the conversation. But the truth is that we are not robots, right? And if you don't make room to at least recognize your emotions, then most people, especially if emotions get heightened, you get angry, you are joyful, whatever it is, they start kind of taking over without you even really noticing it. And you said it perfectly.

You have to turn that curiosity onto yourself and say, what is it that I'm feeling, what's important to me in this conversation. And, obviously there are emotions that are attached to that, and be prepared for them. So when you're walking into the conversation, you've already had that level of preparation where maybe you're even expecting it, maybe it's somebody that, there are those people that trigger us. And they always have. So, there's no reason to believe that this conversation is also gonna trigger you. So since you know that, be prepared for it, know how you're going to sort of take it in and how you're going to react to it. And again, it comes from turning that curiosity on yourself when you're preparing and saying, I can work with this. It's not gonna surprise me, but there's room for it, because I'm human.


Kelly: Right. I would love to spend some time on talking about sort of the end result of negotiation because I think there's a lot of misconception. I certainly was guilty of this before I took your class, like understanding what successful negotiation means. Sometimes, I think people come to the table thinking that in a successful negotiation, it means that I'm the one who's going to like, beat the other person in this game that we're going to play. Right? I think other people can see that there's a win-win scenario. But the caveat is actually that the best negotiations are the ones that could be defined as the most successful are when neither party is actually 100% happy. Right? So talk a little bit about that.


Mori: I think there’s a bigger conversation that sort of has to happen in our society about what winning really means. The word tends to really move towards more masculine characteristics. And so the aggressiveness, being goal focused.


Kelly: Dominance.


Mori: Anything else, the dominance, right? So I think it's time for that because I also think that that's really what leads people into this this misperception about what does winning really mean? Because if that's winning, it's limited, right? Nobody really enjoys negotiating with a very aggressive sort of bully, like a person who has no room for you. Like it's all about that, right? That's not fun. So what that does is it limits the potential for long term opportunity, right? We want to do business with people we like I always say, right? And so is it winning then when two people can come to a conversation and so enjoy the experience? Not yet even the result, but the experience of the conversation, getting to know somebody by connecting; that let's say a deal is not possible, right? Because somebody may not have the resources.

Maybe it's not the right time. But when you walk away you think, okay, not this time. Like I want to go back to that person when I have a bigger budget. Or maybe they move and go to another company where they do have a bigger budget. And so you're the first person they're going to call when the opportunity arises. To me, that's really winning, because in perpetuity, you've established a relationship of sorts, a trust, somebody that you want to go back to. And I think that that comes from a whole different set of characteristics; that comes back to the curiosity and the empathy and the connection and the value being put on the relationship as opposed to the outcome.


Kelly: Right.


Mori: There has to be room for both people.


Kelly: Right. Absolutely. And it's almost like what you're also saying is like thinking about it in the terms of sales and marketing and things along those lines. It’s like, really looking at what the definition of the lifetime value of a customer is or a client. Yeah, it's really, really interesting when you start to contextualize it that way. It's so much more about the long term, the long game, that relationship that's really rooted in authenticity. For sure.


Mori: Well, yeah. As you said, this whole notion of win-win is that it can't possibly at all times be that both of you come in and you get 100% of what you want it, right? It's not possible. But when you actually, I'll use this word because like, you have to sort of enjoy experiences, like they have to satisfy you in some form. But when you enjoy that experience, then you approach it in a way that becomes more about problem solving and making this work, as opposed to I can't wait to walk away and get everything and then comes in compromise, and then comes in conversation. So that's how you get to that true win-win.


Kelly: Right. Just out of curiosity, have you ever read The Infinite Game? Simon Sinek.


Mori: I hope so, yes.


Kelly: You did read it? Yeah. I feel like the way that he talks about the fact that there are so many games, that there is no such thing as winning, it just struck me when you said that. You're like, I hate that word.


Mori: Right. Because it's so complex. People are complex, right? There's so many layers to that onion, that even think about yourself different points of your life. What made you happy five years ago, would it necessarily make you happy today?


Kelly: Not even a little bit.


Mori: Right. So if you leave enough room to be able to go back and say, that works for me, then can we reevaluate this deal? That wouldn't be possible if the person's like, I don't ever want to see you again.


Kelly: Right.


Mori: But if now there's some foundation there, then sure. Yeah, let's look at this again. Maybe it is time for us to reevaluate. And that comes with that first sort of experience with someone.


Kelly: Yeah. There's actually a line that you wrote sort of early in the book, maybe in the first 20 pages that just struck me so much, and it kind of stayed with me throughout the book and the way that I read is I kind of underline different things. And I just want to read this because I think this is kind of an interesting way to sort of wrap up a little bit. You say, “It's not opportunistic so much as it’s strategic. It's also about honoring yourself and the value you're expending. A transaction is never just about a financial gain, but rather about the reciprocity of respect for one another's value.” That line to me was almost like the encapsulation of the entire book. Right? Because it's not about that. It's so much more about like you're saying. It's about the joy and the experience. I mean, there are going to be negotiations that are difficult, but we can find moments of connection and moments of at least coming away from these discussions, even the hardest conversations with like being seen, heard, understood, being valued by the person sitting across from us, or the person on the other end of the phone. At the end of the day, isn't that what negotiation really is? And it doesn't have to be just from a business standpoint. I mean, we're talking about negotiation with our partners, with our kids in all aspects of our lives. Isn't that really what it's all about?


Mori: I think so. In that particular excerpt, I think what I was also trying to say is that, and as you turn it back on yourself, and give yourself permission to take care of yourself, because that has to be a part of this equation. And that's why I said it's not opportunistic on either side. It is strategic, but in a way that sort of dictates again, benevolence and kindness and respect and leaves room for the future. This was all about why do we limit these opportunities to just one conversation, when there's so much more to gain from these connections and these conversations, that negotiation has to become something that makes you whole, I think. And people sometimes think it's very Pollyannaish to me, but I think we can dictate how we want these conversations to go. I think we can dictate how we want our role to be if not us, then who? And I think that we need it. I think there's room for it. And I think we're better for it. And I think we see that today more than ever.


Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. Well said, well, Mori, thank you so much for having this discussion with me. I wish you all the continued success on your first book and I say first because I do think that there maybe more coming.


Mori: I don't know. It's like it's giving birth to a very large baby but I love the experience and thank you so much. I can't tell you how happy I was that you like the book and enough to even give it to a client. So I'm grateful for that. It was great seeing you again.


Kelly: I mean, I didn't like the book. I loved the book. And yeah, and for everyone, I will post the information in the show notes. It's obviously on Amazon, but I'll post the link so that you can get your own copy as well and I highly recommend it. Thanks Mori.


Mori: Thank you so much. Thanks Kelly. Take care of yourself.

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EP 73: Anti-Racism and Our Human Agency, with Ben Guttmann

On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly and Ben Guttmann, founder of Digital Natives, model a difficult conversation on racism. They talk about the importance of listening, educating ourselves, observing our own biases, and leaning in to create an equitable future through our work




 EP 73: Anti-Racism and Our Human Agency

Duration: 33:34


Kelly: Thanks for joining me for this episode of Thrive, your agency resource. Today we're talking about anti-racism. And my guest is Ben Guttmann. He's the co-founder of Digital Natives Group. He's also an adjunct lecturer at Baruch College and an active community member with Long Island City and Queens Economic Empowerment and Development Groups. Ben, I am so grateful to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for being here.


Ben: Thanks Kelly. Looking forward to it.


Kelly: So before we get started, I want to say a few things. I want to say that this was a very conscious decision to have this conversation between two white people. I feel strongly that inviting a black or brown person into a forum to have a discussion about racism is a little short sighted because racism is a white issue. It's been a white issue for over 450 years.


And something interesting that happened in finding a guest for the show, my naiveté left me a little bit surprised as to how many other white men declined having this conversation. They declined because they were uncomfortable. They declined because they said that they felt ill prepared, that they didn't know what to say. They feared saying the wrong thing. I get it. But my hope is that today's episode can be a small model for change in that regard.


 We are certainly going to say the wrong things. We are not going to use the proper terminology every time. But my stance is that silence, not having a conversation about racism, oppression, privilege, inequality, or imbalance of power, that's a lot worse than making any mistakes that are going to happen in this discussion.


So to everyone who's listening, I thank you for listening. And I encourage you to start talking more openly, more candidly with your friends, your family members, your colleagues, commit to looking at your own biases, and then take some small action in the right direction, especially as a creative leader. There's no more important role that you have in this moment. And each day for the rest of your lives than this.


So with that, let's dive into it. If it's okay with you, I think it's a great place to start by level setting, what racism is and what it is not. So yeah, let's talk about a little bit of that—racism versus bigotry versus discrimination prejudice—it's defined in a lot of different ways.           What do you think about that?


Ben: Yeah, what you said before, just echoing that, talking about people who were not interested because they'll be ill-prepared or saying the wrong thing or don't know what to say, I am as imperfect as anybody else, and I am going to say the wrong thing, ill-prepared and don't know what to say.


It’s an incredible moment we were talking before the podcast about how this doesn't all happen unless this all happens. We don't have this rising consciousness and reaction to the events with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, if we didn't have what happened with Amy Cooper and Chris Cooper, if we didn't have what happened before that, and if we didn't have 40 million people unemployed and people who don't have to go to work the next day, necessarily, so you don't have this type of consciousness about that. And we were also talking about being able to both participate over the past few days and some of these actions that were happening. And it's disheartening that it had to happen. But it's disheartening that it did happen and some of those reactions.

In terms of defining what racism is, I don't quite know. There's lot of definitions of it. I'm sure that I have been guilty at some point in my past of implicit racism or implicit bias at some point. And, that’s a struggle.


Kelly: Yeah, I remember sitting in my, it was a sophomore social studies class in high school. And the social studies teacher was pretty progressive. He really pushed us and whatever the curriculum was, we were talking. And I remember he started off this one particular class and he said, raise your hand if you're racist. And it was a pretty diverse school, but everyone looked around. Nobody's hand went up, except for Jose, who is sitting right in front of me. Jose's hand showed up, and I was like, I'm sitting right behind him. And I remember thinking, oh my God, Jose is a racist.


And the teacher illustrated this beautiful point. He was like Jose for the rest of the term, for the rest of the semester, whatever it was, you will get straight A's or whatever it is because you're the most honest person in this class. And I remember it changing my perception when we went into the entire curriculum about racism and civil rights and everything. I think, at this point my understanding of racism is that it's a white issue, because of this self-perceived superiority because of power and because of self-ascribed privilege. Those are the three things that I can sort of have as like an underpinning as my understanding of racism. I don't know how that resonates with you.


Ben: Yeah, I like what you just said in terms of it's a structure. It’s not somebody going out there and saying this word, that word, or the other word. It’s about being a system that is so fundamentally built upon economically, government wise, socially, upon a foundation of that inequality. I'm a straight white guy and I'm Jewish. So that's a whole other can of worms. That's not quite the same thing in any stretch of the imagination. But I walk down the street and my life is so much easier. And then everybody that doesn't check all those same boxes doesn’t have to face the same biases when I'm talking with a client.


People don't run away from me or look over their shoulder when I’m behind them on the street at night. All these things that I did, it's just easier for me. And part of the challenge is for people to acknowledge that, to say, I have had as many benefits as somebody can have. That's a challenge a lot of times for a lot of people.


Kelly: Right. And similar to you saying you're straight and white, and Jewish. I mean, I'm white and gay and a woman. So I have a couple of boxes “checked” against me, but I still have the exact same experience that you have. I have that privilege. I don't have to worry about driving across the country, worrying about what towns I can and cannot stop in, for the most part.


Yeah, there are so many things that we just take as the normal because you nor I will ever have any idea what it's like to be brown or black in America. We will not ever have those experiences. So I feel like this past week was a really great entrance into like listening, like really hearing but then really listening, listening to black voices, listening and giving platform and just the credit where credit's due.


I mean, listening, educating ourselves, reading whatever we needed to do because it's not the job of black or brown people to educate white people on racism. I feel pretty strongly about that, which is why you're here and it's not someone who's black or brown. I don't know. I think it sort of dovetails into the conversation or the question of why is it so uncomfortable. Why did I have to go through five or six or seven people to find someone who is willing to have this conversation? Why do you think racism is such a difficult conversation for white people?


Ben: So I grew up in a town in Long Island that was 98% white. It was literally one of the most segregated places within the entire country. And then I moved to the city and I go to CUNY. I go to Baruch College where I now teach. I'll talk about that stuff later, which at different points was named the most diverse school in the entire country. And so there’s an incredible culture shock going from such a cocooned environment like where I grew up in Smithtown to being at Baruch and meeting people from places I've never even heard of in my 17 years or 18 years from that point.


And one thing that's been kind of stewing a little bit in my mind is that a lot of people especially when they are in a segregated environment, a lot of white people who don't have any sort of real interaction with any sort of diverse communities, I noticed we're color blind, you're colorblind, I don't see color, and it doesn't matter. I didn't see that person's black or brown or whatever. That’s just silly.


Kelly: That's policy. Yeah.


Ben: It's policy. And the other thing that comes to mind is the idea of a melting pot which is great in some ways, but one of the best classes I took while at school was taught by Mario Cuomo, the former governor of state and he gave a little talk about, it's the mosaic of New York, it's the mosaic of America, it's not the melting pot.


It's not about blending everything together and getting rid of the differences and getting rid of the individuality, but it's about how each together produces a beautiful whole. And, instead of saying I don't see color, acknowledging that there is color, acknowledging that there is institutional racism, that there's benefits you get, with everything we've been talking about that is not only going to be anti-racist in this regard, but it's ultimately going to lead to a better end outcome in terms of the celebration of the diversity of who we are.


Kelly: Yeah, I think the conversation is difficult or uncomfortable for people we said at the top of the show because there's this idea that I don't know what to say. I fear from a reputation standpoint if someone's going to look at me differently. I don't feel prepared for it. But I think that there's conscious and unconscious privilege, guilt and shame for a lot of white people. Our ancestors had slaves, and now we're in this 450 years later of a situation where maybe I didn't directly participate in that, but the world that I live in, certainly feels very imbalanced.


So I think it's that. And then I think there's confusion between learned biases and the desire that most of us have. I assume or believe that most people are good at the core. So there's confusion between these learned biases and the desire to love and treat all people equally. And like you said, there’s that interesting conversation about not being a melting pot, really leaning into that mosaic. We're not trying to blend together. I had this conversation.


I started a project called spiritual shadowboxing, which is just like a little video series that we've been doing. And I recently had an episode recorded with a reverend. And here's somebody who said, “How do you reconcile the difference between oneness, we're all one, and the reality of the fact that we're not all one.” And he said, “Well, I do believe that we are a one, but I do not believe that we are the same. And that's okay. The issue comes in where there's the imbalance of that power.”


And I think that's what we need to look at. That's what we need to talk about, recognizing that there is that imbalance of power, and that there needs to be some type of re-distribution. That's what inherently what racism is all about.


Ben: Yeah. I think that's a really interesting way of putting it. And you mentioned the idea of redistribution. One thing that comes up in different kind of policy circles and talk about racial equity in the past has been the idea of preparations. What do you do in terms of that? And that's obviously, you talk about thorny subjects that may be the thorny subject of all of them, but I mean, there's been a lot of interesting discussion about is it justified. Maybe it is something that makes sense. Maybe it's worth studying. It's worth looking at.


Other policy things that ends up being, I know we're going to talk about this a little bit later but in terms of how we individually go about acting on these things. I mentioned before, I'm involved with several different economic development or r civic organizations. Here in Queens, the community board of the Queens Economic Development Corporation. That’s the way personally which I begin to activate on a lot of those things. And there's been talks now about the defunding the NYPD and how do we do something like that. How do you repeal 50-A here in New York State?


Things that weren't discussed a month ago. I'm on the community boards. We put budget priorities for our community every year and then they get commented on by the mayor's office. And we got a letter back with the commentary on the most recent one and it said…I didn't remember this. But six months ago or eight months ago, we all voted on saying new precinct for the local police precinct, the local NYPD precinct, here in Long Island City.


So, we had our most recent meeting about a week ago. We said, it was brought up without necessarily any objection, which I'm surprised from a group like that. We maybe deemphasized this. This shouldn't be what we're doing. So it's amazing to kind of see change. We passed a referendum in favor of Black Lives Matter and all the movements associated. We passed that unanimously. Again, when I joined that organization five years ago, I couldn't have imagined something like that being supported. And so these policy ideas are getting more traction, kind of by the hour almost, which is really incredible.


Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. So then shifting, we started off talking about racism. What do we mean by anti-racism? Because I think that there's a lot of confusion about that term. I came across a definition of it. I'd love to hear from you, if you want to talk about that first, and then I can share the definition that I came across that resonated more so with me, but I can let you talk about that.


Ben: I agree with the thing that you're going to read. We talked about that before, but what we've been talking about largely, I think has been about anti-racism. It's not enough to just say, well, I'm not a racist. I don't say these things. I don't support that organization X or Y. But it's about how do I proactively deconstruct or who can work to make a more equitable society.


So you can't be passive in it. You have to be active in it. How can you do it with your words, your thoughts and your actions?

Kelly: And your wallet, if you have the capacity in your wallet. So yeah, so this definition that I came across. Anti-racism is the active process of identifying and eliminating racism by changing systems, organizational structures, policies, practices, and attitudes. So that power is redistributed, and shared equitably.


I really love that definition. I think it's the strongest one. I think it covers the gamut of what it actually means. And I think for me, the pivotal and most poignant word in there is active process, because it's not something that you do for a week. It's not something that you do passively. So I think, there's definitely alignment there. And getting definition out there and having people understand more about what it actually means because people think, well, I'm not racist. I'm anti-racist. And then they take a passive stance. So you can't have both.


Ben: Yeah, hundred percent. That's a great way though.


Kelly: So talk a little bit more about the civic volunteer experience, because I think that that can actually help people in understanding as we sort of transition the conversation from not being passive to taking action. We talked a little bit about, maybe donating to anti-racist causes, community causes in your local community that would have the greatest impact, educating yourself. Listening. We can do all of these things, but from the civic standpoint, what are some of the ways in which you think that we can be supportive allies from a servant leadership perspectives.


Ben: So, as you just outlined, everybody has their own preferences and their own comfort level of doing different things. And if that just means I'm going to support a black-owned business versus somebody else, that's one way of doing it. If it's volunteerism, if it’s donations or fundraising, if it's hosting talks with your friends and family and doing that. I know people that do all of those things, and to varying degrees, I participated in all of those things.


For me, personally, and for anybody that's interested, I have been a big advocate for this issue and for other issues of being involved in the local political process and local government process. People pay a lot of attention to who's president. They pay a lot of attention to maybe who rather controls the Senate or the House, and those are all very important. But when you look at what actually matters in your day to day lives, your local and state government is actually probably about 10 times more influential on what happens when you walk out the door today.


It talks about, your school, your school board and who's chancellor or superintendent of schools. What is the curriculum that flows from that? The police department, as we've been talking about a little bit, when you look at city budgets for police department around the country, there's been a lot of discussion where a lot of cities are just police departments with some poorly funded social programs on the side. It's, 70%, 60% of the budget of a lot of cities in this country is the police department.


And there's almost nothing for housing and education and civil rights and social justice. Everything else that goes along with that on. So, I know people listening to this may be in all across the country of the world. And so there's going to be varying ways which you can get involved. At the very least you should register to vote, if you're Eligible through and you should vote in every election, because every four years the president is elected, that's great. But talking about New York City every two years is a legislative election. On those odd years, wide elections for governor and comptroller, anything else.

The local election in New York City is every four years but on the odd number of years in terms of 2021 its going be the next election for that. If the people that show up to those have a disproportionate voice than the ones that show up just every four years, because a lot less people vote in those elections. And so if you're sitting those out or whatever, as long as Trump isn't president, I'm fine or whatever. That's not going to be enough. You have to make sure the local leadership is somebody that actually represents your values.


And then beyond that, you have to hold them accountable. You have to be able to call and write into them. You have to be able to see them at their town halls. If you’re in a place like New York City, go to your community board meetings. Join your community boards. These low level things that can be very long, but they are those places, those are the rooms where things begin to actually inch forward in terms of policy.


Kelly: Yeah. It could be those things. I think everything that you just said is really important. Again, I share your view that there are like 27 things that you could do every single day, like pick one or two. I think it's about the fact that this is not a sprint. This is not like how do I do something super impactful in one or two weeks and then like I'm good, like I'm a good person, and I'm anti-racist. No, this whole thing is about the marathon, if this is for the rest of your life.

I might seem utopian, but I hope it's not. My hope is that if each one of us is committed to do just one or two things whether it was with our wallet or volunteerism, or voting or having conversations, educating ourselves, listening to audio books like white fragility to like educate ourselves, whatever you're doing, if you could do one or two things every single day consciously, to the point where it then becomes unconscious at some point, it just becomes organic. It just becomes how you exist in the world. That's when this giant grinding wheel starts to actually move. I feel pretty strongly about that.


Ben: Yeah, exactly. And this system has been built for 400 years, if not longer. It's not going to be unraveled in 400 days or whatever. It's not going to. And it's so foundational to our economy, to our culture, to our government, to the way we even interact with each other, that it's impossible to say…there's no one solution. I remember the protests for the march for our lives, not too long ago.


As improbable as it maybe, there is a one solution for some of that. You ban guns. That's an option. If there is a one solution for global warming in a way again however impractical, stop using fossil fuels. There's no one solution for this. There's no one thing where there's one law that's going to get passed. There's one company that's going to change the policy, one person that's going to get fired or voted out, that's going to change this. And it's about every single day, in every single way, making a little bit of change, a little bit of progress on this. And there's a million different ways to do that.


Kelly: Yeah. And I think it's important to say, choosing the ways in which you have the capacity to do it or the ways in which you know that it'll just be easier for you. So if you are a wealthy person and the way in which you can participate is to donate to anti-racist causes good, fine, that's fine. That's the one thing that you did today. That's fine. And I don't think that there's any judgment about that. It's just whatever you can do that sustained. Because like you said, none of this is a magic bullet. It takes all of us, right?


So, one of the things I wanted to sort of wrap up with in this conversation is that, we're talking to creative leaders who run marketing and advertising agencies, I feel pretty strongly also, I currently have a lot of strong feelings today, I feel pretty strongly that because of the work that we do, we have a responsibility.


And the work that we do impacts brands, it impacts the communications, and the messaging that is distributed, conveyed to the masses. That's a lot of weight on the shoulders of creative leaders. So there was something, Forbes just came out with an article a few hours ago called, How Can Leadership Break Down Racism and Make Changes Now? My question is, how can we as creative leaders start to create anti-racist agencies in order to contribute to a more equitable society?


Ben: Yeah, I'll tell you what we've done, or what we're going to do, and it won't be enough and will never be enough. My partners at Digital Natives are also other white guys. And we're conscious of the fact that there are biases that come with that as we've tried to build our team over the years. We try to integrate more diverse perspective for many reasons. One of them is also it's good for business. It's as morally right as it is.


Running an anti-racist company is going to be better for business because marketing is about a connection to the culture. And if you're only representing one small segment of it, you're only paying attention to one small segment of it, you're not going to do a good job in your creative pursuits. We've been having regular conversations with the team here. We’ve given people time off to do activism. We have a new benefit word matching so we’re doing monthly recurring donations to nonprofits of their choice.


And we're continuing in every way we can to push the envelope a little bit in that. I think those are all things which somebody can do. There's plenty more somebody can do, beyond your own work stuff. I want to squeeze in a little bit about where I teach at Baruch College. I've been doing that for about six years. A couple years ago, I added a lesson to the syllabus that was marketing ethics. And I go over a whole bunch of things, which is marketing good or bad. Stuff like tobacco and sugary foods and all that stuff is part of it. But also we talked about race.


And I mentioned before Baruch is a very diverse school and every time that I bring this segment of the present of the lecture up, I have a screenshot of that infamous H&M advertisement or photo-shoot with like the 10 year old black boy with the green sweatshirt that says coolest monkey in the jungle. And every time I pull it up, everybody in the class winces and goes, oh, my God. And I bring that up, because I know and you know most of our listeners, there were 100 people involved in that.


There were 100 people either on set, the photographer, the editors, the chaperones, the people who were editing the photos, and the people who were posting them on the website, not to mention the people that ran the campaign and that were up top. And the fact is, all of them either didn't say anything because they didn't realize something like this was wrong. Or they were too afraid to say anything, because they didn't want to rock the boat.


Kelly: Yeah, my bet is on the latter. Maybe a 50-50 split. I don't know.


Ben: And if you are not in the room, if you don't have people in the room that can either…or allies that are going to be able to stand up and say something, or the representative cross section of society itself in there. You're going to make those mistakes. It's bad for business and it's bad morally for this. And that's what we ended up getting to the ultimate lesson of that class is you should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. That should be enough. But if for some reason that's not enough, there's plenty of other reasons to do the right thing. And making sure that you have that in each way and each day, you do a little bit to be able to move the needle and acknowledge your own benefits and failings, which I'm sure I've had plenty of failings in this conversation. That is going to be what we can do.


Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. And I think sort of holding yourselves accountable and really putting that commitment out there, you and I both know Michael Ventura and his organization Sub Rosa. They actually just put an email out yesterday, which I want to share a little bit of because I thought it was a great example of commitment on the part of a creative agency to being anti-racist.


And I saw the email come in, I forwarded it. We believe in anti-racism. It's hard to believe that despite how much we thought our organization stood for anti-racism a few short weeks ago, the events of the past week have shown us it has many companies, how much further we all need to go.


Like many this past week, the people at Sub Rosa had been listening to and learning from black leaders sharing their messages and interrogating the privilege. Many of us have benefited from in our careers and throughout our lives. We are an organization built on the foundation of empathy. And yet, even with the tools, resources and practices designed to elicit true understanding of this topic, we have fallen short of what needs to be done, we will do better.


And then it goes on for another half a page or so to talk about what they're committed to, what they're implementing at the organization. I would love to see more emails like this coming from creative agencies, and then more discussions around it. Maybe even having some of this information on their websites and for the long term, updating that, showing the progress they've made, showing what action steps they've taken each month or each quarter, whatever it is. I think this is it's just what's needed.


Ben: And I just want to add one thing too. Don’t work with jerks. Don't work with Jack. You don't have to work for everybody that walks in the door. You don't have to seek out business that is actively making the world worse. Be it with racism, or be it with the environment or be it with gun violence or whatever it is, we have turned down business every single year we've been in business because it didn't align with our ethics. And, it's a tough not to swallow. Sometimes when you got to meet payroll you only have so much time on this earth. You only have so much creative energy when you're here and you should not use that to further the pursuits of those who are not trying to make this a better place.


Kelly: Yeah, couldn't agree more. Ben, thank you so much for having this discussion with me. I really appreciate it and we'll talk soon.


Ben: Thanks Kelly.

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EP 72: Can Your Agency Withstand a Recession?, with Karen Auster

On this episode of THRIVE—sponsored by Workamajig—Kelly talks with Karen Auster of the Auster Agency about what you can and cannot control when preparing for an economic recession, as well as what role mindset plays throughout its natural cycle.



 EP 72: Can Your Agency Withstand a Recession?

Duration: 17:16


Kelly: So welcome back to this week's episode of Thrive, your agency resource. Today we're talking about planning for a recession. And I've got Founder and CEO of Auster Agency with me, Karen Auster. Thank you so much for joining me today and taking the time out.


Karen: Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to get up and shower today.


Kelly: It's the little things, right?


Karen: Absolutely.


Kelly: So your agency is a 25 plus year old experiential firm, right?


Karen: Yeah.


Kelly: So that means that you've weathered the recession. You've kind of been in a situation as similar to this as possible. Can you share a little bit about your experience with that, your story, and really how that impacted your life not just from the business sense, but you personally?


Karen: Well, it's funny you said something about this is going to be about planning for the recession. The truth is, you really can't. The plan is that there's really no plan, that you really have to go with wherever you're at. But something I talk about often is that, learn from your mistakes and move on from there. So what I did learn when it happened in 2008, 2009, my firm went through the recession. Auster Agency, at that time was in event planning. We did planning big events, festivals.

And 2009, 2010 when the recession hit, I had to kind of sit and listen to my clients, what they needed. And that's what the plan became. The world around us was changing at that time. I mean, today, it's hard to describe then and now because now it's about health and financials. The Coronavirus is totally different than the 2009 recession, but in the sense that my marriage ended. I was a single mom. I had an agency. It was petrifying what was happening in the markets and what was happening to my clients.

But at that time, and fortunately, I stayed nimble and I listened to what my clients needed. And they really wanted at that time, not just an event planning agency, but it was an opportunity for me to become a marketing agency and really take on all different services and to get revenue from different sources of services. It was really scary time like now. That's the only difference. It's scary. I think it's much scarier now. But if I use what I learned in 2008, it was stay nimble. Listen to your clients. Pivot where you see there's an opportunity and don't be irrational but to really sit tight, especially right now, it is really sitting tight and watching what's happening with the markets and what's happening with your services.

I mean, I do events. That is our niche. We bring products and places to the marketplace. We bring communities together outside and this Coronavirus puts that to a halt. Like over the years, we've built events for over a million people. And now it's all to a halt. So it's really about, what I learned in 2008, to cut back, cut your expenses back and really hold tighten the reigns and pay attention to what's gonna happen next.


Kelly: Yeah. And one of the things that you and I have talked about before is this sense of like, the energy of community in terms of your mindset. So I think that that's a good place to go because a) that's sort of like you just mentioned, that's your area of expertise. But I think you also take that a step further from the mindset perspective and like really anchoring into that sense of community. Why is that so important, that energy for you?


Karen: Well, that's why I chose to do what I do. Because I get energy from people and bringing together passion for projects. I love being around people. My favorite thing is creating experiences, to sit back and watch everyone enjoy what we just produced. I mean, there's a festival we produce that we grew from, a couple thousand people to almost a million people, which the greatest joy for me was sitting and watching the events while I'm producing it from afar and that goes on in everything we do. So watching people come together and enjoy something is an energy to it.

So now what's difficult is no one could talk, touch or anything. So driving, I'm hopeful with this like I was in 2008, that people are going to be really thirsty to want to be together to share the love and I think it's gonna happen slowly, very slowly. I mean, we're not even at the crux of it. I live in Brooklyn. It's a very unknown time. I don't want to use the word scared, because I'm healthy today. And I'm grateful for that. And when you just sit back, watch, I mean, there's a lot of things happening in politics right now that you're paying attention.

As a matter of fact, this morning, I don't mean to go off topic, but this morning, the crazy thing was a bill came in and said, oh, you owe your general premium insurance for the year. So here's a big enormous bill and I was like, ah, like, right now, it's expiring, of course, April 1. And, I'm like, well, we're not even going back to the office. We're not mandatory workers. So I have to pay this insurance though. But I sat on it. I watched the insurance agent. And then, minutes later, a note came in saying all general policy insurance, 90 day waiver, to be delayed. And it was like, okay, I didn't react, it didn't get crazy. And I just waited and that information just came in an email. It’s like the coverage is on it. Like he delayed the payment.


Kelly: Yeah. Well, that kind of, I think leads into this whole concept of being really self-reliant and trusting yourself that, that waiting, that pause, sort of you could even say, leading with love, and being as opposed to doing. I think that that's sort of how, from my perspective or my perception is like, that's how you show up as a leader. And for those who are struggling right now, how are you able to kind of see this light and remain so positive amid so much darkness?


Karen: Well, I lost my entire life in 2008, 2009. I mean, I lost everything I knew as what it was, and it was petrifying and sad and I did so much crying, just pure crying. And I always say, learn from your mistakes or learn from the past. You're smart. If you make the same mistake twice, that's stupid. So I see that I lived through that. And now again, I'm going to remain calm because I know that this too shall pass and I will survive this.

So I look back, obviously in 2008 my life was a catastrophe. Business was plummeting. My personal life is plummeting. Everything was taken away from me as I knew it. My new normal was creating nothing. I was floating around like a particle. And now, I know I did that. And that's why this experience for everyone on the planet right now, if we could get through this, whatever happens next, as you persevere and stay positive and, I mean, a lot of people are really suffering right now and I don't want to minimize that because it is so scary for people that are sick, actually ill.

So I'm grateful to stay connected. It's really important to stay connected to people and who shows up in your life. I say this about divorce. I say this about business, clients. Some of my clients called me when they were letting us go. They were really kind and human and very careful and then there was some that were just obnoxious. People you surround yourself with, it's like gold mining. You pick up some gold nuggets that stay at the top and trigger it, move it and then all the other sediment goes off. And that's what I how I feel now. Like those people that I love, they're staying around. All my good friends, all my clients that are amazing, they're staying with me. They’re in it. We're talking. We're connecting. That's what it's all about love and passion. They know I've worked really hard for them so they're sticking around. They're kind. And then there are people that just disappear and they just freak out and they disappear.

Kelly: Yeah. With all of that in mind and making sure that we filter out the people or the universe filters out the people that aren't supposed to be our clients that are in our life whatever your belief system is, we still need to be realistic though. So I know you mentioned before cutting back expenses, what are you personally and professionally cutting back, sort of in terms of planning for this inevitable or inevitability of a recession after this pandemic is over?


Karen: I'm cutting back on everything. There's just so much.


Kelly: Did you make a list? How did you arrive at? What were the things?

Karen: I looked at their MX and I looked at MyCFO. Literally we had meetings weeks ago about what expenses, I mean, really planning. That's where I am a planner. I'm an event planner by nature by who I am. And this is where you can plan. So this we're gonna go back to the planning. So you look at your expenses, what is your overhead? This is something I didn't really know in 2010. And that's what I learned. It was like fast learning.

What's the fat? Where can you skim the fat? So for me, literally, I stopped the water expense and bought the water holder. There were things that we just picked up on. The cellphone service, my assistant who's brilliant went out and renegotiated phone systems. And couple of weeks ago, we installed less expensive phone systems, like those kind of big expenses that I saw on a monthly basis. And we then went out and bid it out. When you're running an agency, you're just paying it out.

Because money's coming in, you're just paying it out. And then all of a sudden, a couple of weeks ago, I said to my assistant, let's take a look at MyCFO. And he was really great about it. He's super organized. And he said, here are your expenses. And this is maybe, this is where you can…I mean, there's just extra insurance you're paying for. And here's the news. There's no insurance for this Coronavirus for businesses, like I can pay billions of dollars in insurance, and nothing covers this. So there's a lot of things, as simple as parking garage, got rid of it, like the small but they all add up.


Kelly: But they add up and they compound and that's where you're kind of able to survive through this. And then that way you can sort of rebound on the other side, right?


Karen: Yes.


Kelly: Yeah. So I know this is sort of like a bigger question. But from your perspective, what do you think the lessons are in all of this? I know that there are probably so many, but I'm sure you have had a little time to kind of think and digest and just look at things about what you do, who you surround yourself with, who your clients are, like you mentioned before, what you will accept, what you won't accept, like have you started really diving in from that perspective to look at what are these lessons that I'm supposed to learn from this.


Karen: The two things I am going to say I'm grateful for. One is that I did learn my lesson in 2010, to be careful about monies like don't put yourself into debt for anyone, make sure that your clients are paying on time, so that I was not in trouble and all the work that we do was kind of current. And I have a lot of friends that run agencies that aren’t current and it's impossible to compete now. And there are 2 clients that haven't paid me and there's not gonna pay. So surrounding myself, my instinct about certain people, I should have listened to my belly. My stomach told me about certain people and I didn't listen.

And sometimes because you get hungry and you want to get more clients, the higher level clients but always my mother told me, listen to your stomach like listen, trust your instinct. I'm 53 years old. Trust that instinct. Go back to that and people show up who they are, like again a client that let us go who I liked, it’s been a bit minute. He just checked and wrote, how are you doing Karen? Just said that and then paid me a nice amount of retainer and he just couldn't see who I am just because he’s a nice person. So the lesson is don't overspend. Be smart about your business and your money and ensure that you're getting your revenue in and cut your expenses down. And I guess secondly is really surround yourself with whom you know you like and your stomach trust. Trust your instincts. You know who is a good person. They really show up at the end.


Kelly: Yeah, I think that's a really great point. I mean, trusting that intuition, number one, I definitely agree with that. You could call it instinct or gut feeling. For me that shows up as intuition. It's something that you just feel. It's not rational. It's like, I may not even know this person, but I get this vibe, or I get this feeling about whether I want to work with them or not. And, when you go against that, you know that you're going against it.


Karen: That's the great thing about being older. Like I love being 53, because I've been here in some capacity. I mean, I'm always learning. I'm learning so much. It's like so much fun. I have much more confidence now because, what am I gonna lose? Give it to me. But yes, I have that intuition. And I had it when I was in my 20s.


Kelly: Right, but you didn't trust it?


Karen: Did not know. Like, of course, you knew that. Come on Karen. The other person is not going to show up. They're gonna lie, literally lie. So it's business. It’s not personal. That's the differences here. There's a lot of things that I don't take personally at all anymore because it's a game. This is a game. I am moving forward. I'm only going to work with people. My life has changed now. I don't have to hustle kids, have to do college, but I don't want to. My instinct feels something. And my intuition tells me this person is not to be trusted. I'm going to move forward with that.


Kelly: Yeah. So I think that's kind of one the big lessons, kind of where I was coming from. It's about going forward, as we know that we're going to go through recession and a recession is cyclic, right? It's not this thing that oh, my God. We do expect this, like every 10 years we kind of expect something fairly big to happen from a financial perspective. So we know this is coming and maybe the best way to plan is actually cutting back on the expenses. That's more from a tactical standpoint, but also trusting your intuition about the clients that you do have or even other people in your personal life. And, figuring out, am I actually doing the thing that I feel really called to do and that I feel adds value to the world? I think this is really a time for everybody to plan. I use that term kind of lightly. To plan from that perspective. What do I want my life to look like on the other side of this, whatever the other side of this means.


Karen: Right, because setting goals again, it's like readjusting; setting goals, trim the fat.


Kelly: Well, your goals are different though. Your goals aren't necessarily oh I want to hit $5 million by the end of the year. Your goals might be I want a client roster that actually checks in to see how I'm doing in the middle of a pandemic. Maybe we need to change the metrics a little bit.


Karen: Yeah, I like that. I’ll take that.


Kelly: Well, Karen, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I really love this discussion. And just be safe and I will talk to you.


Karen: Thank you. Take care.


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